BPAS PODCAST: 6th Feb '23, S3:E25: Incrementally Worse

[basilrobbie]

That was an interesting listen, and to be honest I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

There are at least three issues in play here, for me (maybe four) :

 

1) The manager, and whether he is the right person for the job. I think the job is still something of a poisoned chalice, despite the changes that have happened (see below). But Matt was right to point out that he (Unsworth) is probably a long way out of his comfort zone here. Whether  a bit of mentoring (from Royle??) would help, I don't know. It's an unforgiving environment that he finds himself in, that is for sure ;

 

2) The underlying culture at the club. I don't think you have left the past behind yet, not by a long chalk (see below also), and by that I am talking about fans as well. I mentioned last week that it was a tranquil Pod, and quite rare in that respect. But often they reflect the fearful nature of where you think you are, and which leads to some of the awful stuff that appears on Twitter (most of which I don't see, thank God) ;

 

3) There has been a lot change at the club, and not all  it is necessarily good. That has to be managed, and I think the club owner and managerial team will be learning a lot. They are of course, trying hard - but that doesn't mean that they aren't fallible. The owners of my club faced some similar challenges, and the fact that they are a vast improvement on what went before does not mean that they are immune from making mistakes. They aren't, and they have. I don't think your club is necessarily any different. Taking a manager from a club who currently look like a byword in poor management and recruitment may end up being something they regret ; 

 

4) You have suffered really poor recruitment for quite a long time. As both Matt and Andy said, the consequences of that not only linger, they also act as a brake on improvement. 

 

I think you can get out of this, but equally I don't see more than about six sides I think you can finish above, on the basis of the evidence to hand after over half a season. Given that there is a real chance that all four of the clubs who come up from NLN and NLS this year may be clubs who have had experience of the Division (e.g. King's Lynn,, Fylde, Ebbsfleet, Havant ), the Division may lose some quality at the top, but it could get even tighter at the bottom in 23/24.  That raises the stakes for summer rebuilding a bit.

 

 

[League one forever]

21 minutes ago, basilrobbie said:

That was an interesting listen, and to be honest I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

There are at least three issues in play here, for me (maybe four) :

 

1) The manager, and whether he is the right person for the job. I think the job is still something of a poisoned chalice, despite the changes that have happened (see below). But Matt was right to point out that he (Unsworth) is probably a long way out of his comfort zone here. Whether  a bit of mentoring (from Royle??) would help, I don't know. It's an unforgiving environment that he finds himself in, that is for sure ;

 

2) The underlying culture at the club. I don't think you have left the past behind yet, not by a long chalk (see below also), and by that I am talking about fans as well. I mentioned last week that it was a tranquil Pod, and quite rare in that respect. But often they reflect the fearful nature of where you think you are, and which leads to some of the awful stuff that appears on Twitter (most of which I don't see, thank God) ;

 

3) There has been a lot change at the club, and not all  it is necessarily good. That has to be managed, and I think the club owner and managerial team will be learning a lot. They are of course, trying hard - but that doesn't mean that they aren't fallible. The owners of my club faced some similar challenges, and the fact that they are a vast improvement on what went before does not mean that they are immune from making mistakes. They aren't, and they have. I don't think your club is necessarily any different. Taking a manager from a club who currently look like a byword in poor management and recruitment may end up being something they regret ; 

 

4) You have suffered really poor recruitment for quite a long time. As both Matt and Andy said, the consequences of that not only linger, they also act as a brake on improvement. 

 

I think you can get out of this, but equally I don't see more than about six sides I think you can finish above, on the basis of the evidence to hand after over half a season. Given that there is a real chance that all four of the clubs who come up from NLN and NLS this year may be clubs who have had experience of the Division (e.g. King's Lynn,, Fylde, Ebbsfleet, Havant ), the Division may lose some quality at the top, but it could get even tighter at the bottom in 23/24.  That raises the stakes for summer rebuilding a bit.

 

 

Despite everything you said, which is very balanced and not without some merit. Most fans are not asking for a lot Baz, we know the club will take a long time to turn around, and we don’t expect to be challenging. 
 

But I think we over complicate it sometimes. 
 

He’s had backing. 
 

He’s had a reasonable of time to get his style across. 
 

But the performances go between ok to truly awful. The same with results. 
 

Maybe- he’s just not good at his job. 
 

If a manager had us midtable with the same backing, I think most fans would be fine and a lot of the noise and disenchantment would go away. Because off the pitch everything is miles better. 

[LightDN123]

43 minutes ago, basilrobbie said:

That was an interesting listen, and to be honest I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

There are at least three issues in play here, for me (maybe four) :

 

1) The manager, and whether he is the right person for the job. I think the job is still something of a poisoned chalice, despite the changes that have happened (see below). But Matt was right to point out that he (Unsworth) is probably a long way out of his comfort zone here. Whether  a bit of mentoring (from Royle??) would help, I don't know. It's an unforgiving environment that he finds himself in, that is for sure ;

 

2) The underlying culture at the club. I don't think you have left the past behind yet, not by a long chalk (see below also), and by that I am talking about fans as well. I mentioned last week that it was a tranquil Pod, and quite rare in that respect. But often they reflect the fearful nature of where you think you are, and which leads to some of the awful stuff that appears on Twitter (most of which I don't see, thank God) ;

 

3) There has been a lot change at the club, and not all  it is necessarily good. That has to be managed, and I think the club owner and managerial team will be learning a lot. They are of course, trying hard - but that doesn't mean that they aren't fallible. The owners of my club faced some similar challenges, and the fact that they are a vast improvement on what went before does not mean that they are immune from making mistakes. They aren't, and they have. I don't think your club is necessarily any different. Taking a manager from a club who currently look like a byword in poor management and recruitment may end up being something they regret ; 

 

4) You have suffered really poor recruitment for quite a long time. As both Matt and Andy said, the consequences of that not only linger, they also act as a brake on improvement. 

 

I think you can get out of this, but equally I don't see more than about six sides I think you can finish above, on the basis of the evidence to hand after over half a season. Given that there is a real chance that all four of the clubs who come up from NLN and NLS this year may be clubs who have had experience of the Division (e.g. King's Lynn,, Fylde, Ebbsfleet, Havant ), the Division may lose some quality at the top, but it could get even tighter at the bottom in 23/24.  That raises the stakes for summer rebuilding a bit.

 

 

Appreciate your posts but I just don’t fully subscribe to what you say and how long it should take to be competitive in this division. 
We have the top 3 crowds, we have far superior facilities than most teams, we have players who are and have been successful at this level, he has been backed in the transfer market. There was and has been a huge feel good factor in terms of the takeover and fans are more than happy with the off field stuff. 
Just look at Southend, they are shambles off the pitch, but they are competitive week in week out. I just don’t believe that things are that bad we can’t be a mid table team in the national league, not having it. 

[Steve_R]

Although I’ll be forever grateful to Frank and Co, Im worried we’re over complicating things with the way we’re running the playing side. Apparently Unsworth doesn’t actually sign the players. We have a recruitment policy that uses all this data the Brentford and Brighton use apparently, or at least that’s what I was told by someone off the podcast on Saturday. That’s fine in the premier league where players are all of a high quality, but we’re at the arse end of football we’re most of the players are shit. We need someone to identify those who are less shit, and is capable of moulding them into a decent side at this level. Someone who knows this level and the players needed to improve us, and most importantly, knows what he’s doing. 
Get moving in the right direction, then out of the league first. Then start revamping the whole set up.

[basilrobbie]

14 minutes ago, LightDN123 said:

Appreciate your posts but I just don’t fully subscribe to what you say and how long it should take to be competitive in this division. 
We have the top 3 crowds, we have far superior facilities than most teams, we have players who are and have been successful at this level, he has been backed in the transfer market. There was and has been a huge feel good factor in terms of the takeover and fans are more than happy with the off field stuff. 
Just look at Southend, they are shambles off the pitch, but they are competitive week in week out. I just don’t believe that things are that bad we can’t be a mid table team in the national league, not having it. 

Don't apologise for seeing it differently.  I don't support the club, so it is easy for me to be dispassionate - and it isn't always the answer.

 

I think you may be underestimating the Division, though. People often say that it is packed with ex-league clubs with potential. But it also has several small clubs who are extremely well run and make a little go a very long way (Boreham, Bromley, Wealdstone, Dagenham, Woking to name just a few). You are faced with challenges wherever you look, and that is hard for a club that remains very fragile.

 

Southend had a first half a season in the NL that was very like yours, and only started to improve when they made a managerial change, so it could be the answer. The essence of their problems is different from yours though, and they haven't yet got rid of the underlying problem. So they offer a partial comparison, not a perfect one, and while they are competitive (as you say), they don't yet look like a promotion winning side.

 

I think what I was hinting at was that the club ownership may well still be making some mistakes, for all their admirable qualities. And they are grappling with a fearsome, entrenched set of problems. It will take time to pan out, and quite a bit of it (in my opinion). 

[TheBigDog]

29 minutes ago, Steve_R said:

…but we’re at the arse end of football we’re most of the players are shit. We need someone to identify those who are less shit…

That’s Unsworth’s team talk done for him … 

 

“Right lads, get out there and prove @Steve_Rwrong!”

[Steve_R]

11 minutes ago, TheBigDog said:

That’s Unsworth’s team talk done for him … 

 

“Right lads, get out there and prove @Steve_Rwrong!”

Let’s hope they do!

[yarddog73]

2 hours ago, TheBigDog said:

That’s Unsworth’s team talk done for him … 

 

“Right lads, get out there and prove @Steve_Rwrong!”

Alternatively if Unsworth and Co have lost the dressing room which could be argued expect much the same until a new face is appointed. 

[JoeP]

2 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

Don't apologise for seeing it differently.  I don't support the club, so it is easy for me to be dispassionate - and it isn't always the answer.

 

I think you may be underestimating the Division, though. People often say that it is packed with ex-league clubs with potential. But it also has several small clubs who are extremely well run and make a little go a very long way (Boreham, Bromley, Wealdstone, Dagenham, Woking to name just a few). You are faced with challenges wherever you look, and that is hard for a club that remains very fragile.

 

Southend had a first half a season in the NL that was very like yours, and only started to improve when they made a managerial change, so it could be the answer. The essence of their problems is different from yours though, and they haven't yet got rid of the underlying problem. So they offer a partial comparison, not a perfect one, and while they are competitive (as you say), they don't yet look like a promotion winning side.

 

I think what I was hinting at was that the club ownership may well still be making some mistakes, for all their admirable qualities. And they are grappling with a fearsome, entrenched set of problems. It will take time to pan out, and quite a bit of it (in my opinion). 

 

I don't think the majority of us are naive enough to think they won't make mistakes.  They will (it's actually hard to think of any apart from this one, crucial one).

 

Nobody sensible underestimated the division - we knew it was going to be tough.  However, whereas many small clubs are well run, we have had the advantage that we've been able to spend to make up that disadvantage.

 

There seems to be a fair amount of reasons being put forward as to why Unsworth isn't getting it right.  Maybe in reality it's the most obvious one - he's not very good! Occam's razor!

[JoeP]

4 hours ago, Shrek said:

 

The new players so must do better is a red herring. We have done better since Nutall arrived. It takes time for new players to bed in so I'll give him a break there. Around 50% are new since the start of the season.

 

The main issue is the attitude on the pitch. We don't try to play, perhaps because the midfield is shocking. But to double up we almost don't try to attack. A real lack of effort for me. Ugly wins and results were always going to be the key. If we don't seem to try and win from the off, why bother?

 

And who's fault's that?

 

New players isn't a red herring - if you're spending £100k on a player you expect him to be good.  Instantly.   We've chiselled out a few results since Nuttal's arrival but "done better" is stretching it.  The performances have been pretty much consistent - we've just got away with a few.  The game on Saturday is a truer reflection of where we're at in my opinion..

[BP1960]

3 hours ago, Steve_R said:

Although I’ll be forever grateful to Frank and Co, Im worried we’re over complicating things with the way we’re running the playing side. Apparently Unsworth doesn’t actually sign the players. We have a recruitment policy that uses all this data the Brentford and Brighton use apparently, or at least that’s what I was told by someone off the podcast on Saturday. That’s fine in the premier league where players are all of a high quality, but we’re at the arse end of football we’re most of the players are shit. We need someone to identify those who are less shit, and is capable of moulding them into a decent side at this level. Someone who knows this level and the players needed to improve us, and most importantly, knows what he’s doing. 
Get moving in the right direction, then out of the league first. Then start revamping the whole set up.

 

I've identified quite a few far better IMO than what we have and none have been signed.The process takes time to follow up recommendations and then others may not agree with my opinions...and for various reasons the players and clubs may not reach an a agreement. Some may be in positions we don't need.

Also take into account recruitment is hindered by the over bloated squad size which needs to be reduced. It's a very frustrating period for everyone.

I've worked in scouting for over 40 years and the number of recommendations going to other clubs by far outweighs those signed. Some don't work out as expected, but that's the same anywhere.

A top scout I know wrote a book mainly based on one gem he spotted, they are few and far between so when they come along you just hope your club signs them.

 

[Shrek]

1 hour ago, JoeP said:

 

And who's fault's that?

 

New players isn't a red herring - if you're spending £100k on a player you expect him to be good.  Instantly.   We've chiselled out a few results since Nuttal's arrival but "done better" is stretching it.  The performances have been pretty much consistent - we've just got away with a few.  The game on Saturday is a truer reflection of where we're at in my opinion..

 

Nutall was good quite instantly. Results picked up also, that's a fact. Having a different partner at centre half or centre mid takes time to get used to. The issue is the intention of the side. Playing flowing football and being water tight at the back with such a turnover was never going to happen.

 

We've signed a 100k striker and he feeds off 4 midfielders who wouldn't catch at Dorking. Hopefully Rooney gets in the side and gives him some support / service.