Latics and England Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As you will be aware from previous threads on here, Andy (Leeslover) and I visited Boundary Park on Tuesday to run through the accounts with Neil Joy, Alan Hardy and Simon Corney. We had a very useful and productive hour with the three of them and they were very open and honest with us. We were given access to a detailed 2008 P&L as will as the Stat Accounts and we were able to ask questions on what we found. We tried to cover off all the questions that had been posted on here although time constraints meant we couldn't cover absolutely everything. I have put together the following notes on the answers we received. I am happy to answer any specific questions that anyone wants to post on here and if it is on something we were unable to cover in our session, I will follow it up with Alan. Summary: My overwhelming view of the meeting was that it backed up the messages that have been put out at previous functions eg. the new ground forums at Radcliffe and also messages through the media. The owners of the club are clearly putting significant funds into the club on a weekly basis and it became more apparent about where the costs originate from. The relatively low levels of income generated from ticket sales was also apparent when compared with the cost of attracting players at a League 1 level. Debts: We are essentially debt free, other than for loans from the current directors. Between them, the directors are currently putting £0.75m - £1m a year into the club to keep it running. Although this is done in the form of loans, these loans are not secured upon any assets of the club and are non-interest bearing. At the end of 2008, these loans were over £4m. No accounts are yet available for 2009 but based upon information given, it seems likely that the loans are now around £5m. These monies are passed on to the club by the owners as and when they are required. There are other small loans included in the balance sheet such as forwarded TV money but these are not substantial. The implications of this are that if for any reason the current owners were unable to continue supporting the club or wished to pull out for any reason there would be no outstanding debts (such as the Inland Revenue or other clubs owed money for transfers) who would need to be paid by incoming owners. It is for this reason that Simon Corney states that there is no way that they would leave the club in administration, as although the club would not be able to operate at the same levels of expenditure without finding other investors, there would be no creditors with a claim against the club. Assets: As most people will be aware, Boundary Park is not an asset of the football club and Tangible assets in total are only approximately £700k. This mainly comprises of buildings and equipment. Players are valued only based upon what we have paid for them and are amortised/written off over the duration of their contract. These valuations include additional costs such as agents fees on top of any transfer fees. Players for whom we have paid no fee are not given a value on the balance sheet. This is normal accounting practice. In reality, a player’s value cannot be readily defined and so it is sensible to to assign a notional value in the accounts. Income: Ticket sales income for the year is split almost 50/50 between Season Tickets and ‘on the gate’ sales. We currently have 2,800 season ticket holders which brings in about £600k. Income from the Football League has been around £640k per year in recent years covering TV money, sponsorship etc. It should be noted that the FL contract with Coca Cola is due to expire at the end of the season and that the outcome of sponsorship negotiations will have a large impact on this figure going forward. Commercial income including sponsorship, merchandise, programmes etc. was just over £800k in 2008. The Boundary Park catering contract was sold to Azure. We receive a set percentage of sales (note: sales, not profit). All risks are borne by Azure and since they have taken over they have managed to increase the spend per head compared with when we did the catering ourselves. Azure suffer all the costs such as wages and wastage and this income stream is higher than the net stream before this was contracted out. We receive a FL Trust grant for youth development which brings in another £160k but does not cover the cost of our youth development programme. Additional income is also received from other initiatives such as car park rental and income is also sometimes received through bequests. Total income in 2008 was £3.5m Expenditure: Maintenance costs were not separately split out in the information we received, but Ground expenses as a whole were £627k in 2008, of which maintenance expenses made up the majority. There are a lot of one-off jobs that must be done before the start of a new season before a safety certificate can be received for the ground. These can top £100k. At the start of the 09/10 season, one requirement was for new glass panelling to be installed in the Broadway stand. The cost of this would have been approximately £50k. In addition, we would have been required to repaint the stand using intumescent paint, which protects the steelwork, at a cost of £10k. These, along with other factors including £10k in rates that must be paid on the stand, £12k stewarding and £5k electricity were considered when opting to demolish the stand. The players’ wage bill in 2009 is in line with 2008, at approx £1.6m. The cost of loan players for the season, included within this figure, is approximately £150k plus significant costs of providing accommodation for them. Policing costs vary significantly depending upon our opposition. Most games are now classed as police free but we have significant policing costs for others. The Millwall game this season cost £1,800 to police while the Leeds cost is more like £15,000. The Tranmere game being postponed on Boxing Day saved us over £10k in policing, though lost us more than double that because of the size of the away following when it was played on a Tuesday night. No figures were immediately available for the costs of players’ breakfasts and lunches. Players pay towards the costs of their meals in the same way as do none-playing staff. While these are significant costs, they are all budgeted for and so are not problematic. The major problem comes from unexpected costs. The odd £3k here and £4k there soon adds up. For example, the club has to pay pension contributions relating to a Football League scheme from many years ago. These contributions more than trebled to around £4k per month last year. Fees associated to the work carried out on finding a new stadium site have also been immense. Cost of Relegation No budgets have currently been prepared looking at the cost to the club if we were relegated as this is not expected. Simon Corney confirmed that the directors are 100% committed to keeping the club in League 1 and that if money for players was needed to ensure this, it would be available. It is very difficult to say what the cost would be. The Football League income would drop by about £200k, but there is no way of knowing how it would affect attendances. It may lead to lower attendances with lower away followings as well as reduced numbers of home fans, or if we were doing better in that division, crowds may actually increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) "Azure suffer all the costs such as wages and wastage" and corney was bleating on about losing £10grands worth of pies????? mmmm.... http://www.owtb.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=27681&hl=pies Edited February 25, 2010 by johnny punkster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Sure the conspiricy theorists will read in between the lines and make you out to be happy clappers. Did Leeslover have a bottle of orange 'squash' with him by any chance ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razza699 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The players’ wage bill in 2009 is in line with 2008, at approx £1.6m. The cost of loan players for the season, included within this figure, is approximately £150k plus significant costs of providing accommodation for them. Bloody Windass to fit his ego into *** *** oh wait no he travel on a push bike didnt he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Expenditure: At the start of the 09/10 season, one requirement was for new glass panelling to be installed in the Broadway stand. The cost of this would have been approximately £50k. In addition, we would have been required to repaint the stand using intumescent paint, which protects the steelwork, at a cost of £10k. These, along with other factors including £10k in rates that must be paid on the stand, £12k stewarding and £5k electricity were considered when opting to demolish the stand. The players’ wage bill in 2009 is in line with 2008, at approx £1.6m. The cost of loan players for the season, included within this figure, is approximately £150k plus significant costs of providing accommodation for them. No budgets have currently been prepared looking at the cost to the club if we were relegated as this is not expected. Simon Corney confirmed that the directors are 100% committed to keeping the club in League 1 and that if money for players was needed to ensure this, it would be available. Good stuff Mark and fair play to Simon Corney for being true to his word and open. I was particularly interested in wage bills - it would have been beneficial to have a seasonal breakdown, or some monthly figures, or a 2010 forecast though. Also pleasing to hear that there is scope for a marquee loan signing or two to help stave off relegation if it looks necessary. Shouldn't the highlighted bit have been 08/09? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoytonBlueLad Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Guess we better stay up this season then. Over to you Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 ...Andy (Leeslover) and I visited Boundary Park on Tuesday... Before this thread becomes awash with conspiracy, conjecture and what-not can I just thank you and Andy for taking the time to do this, it's greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 "Azure suffer all the costs such as wages and wastage" and corney was bleating on about losing £10grands worth of pies????? mmmm.... http://www.owtb.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=27681&hl=pies SC was having a go about the problems the weather caused and I for one would agree that 10k of food being chucked away is not good whether OAFC bear the cost or not. Though i'm sure such costs will be remembered by Azure when negotiating future contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Good work. Do you know who actually owns the ground then? The owners or a holding company and did they say anything about why its not owned by OAFC 2004 Ltd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) SC was having a go about the problems the weather caused and I for one would agree that 10k of food being chucked away is not good whether OAFC bear the cost or not. Though i'm sure such costs will be remembered by Azure when negotiating future contracts. he talked it up as a loss...he said it as if it was from TTA own pocket. Edited February 25, 2010 by johnny punkster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Before this thread becomes awash with conspiracy, conjecture and what-not can I just thank you and Andy for taking the time to do this, it's greatly appreciated. X2, lets hope this puts an end to at least some of the rubbish that is reported as fact on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) Would just like to say a big thank you to Leeslover and Latics & England for taking the time to get this information. The trust should take note and understand it this sort of clarity many expected from having a trust. The fact two fans have had to take it on is shocking. I would suggest to the club that this sort of report happens on a yearly basis and is put on the trusts website. Edited February 25, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveoafc Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Well done to the guys for giving up their time to provide us all with an insight into the clubs finances etc. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) Sure the conspiricy theorists will read in between the lines and make you out to be happy clappers. Did Leeslover have a bottle of orange 'squash' with him by any chance ? It would be rash to claim that I am ever entirely sober, least of all when I am off work, but if I was drunk it was only residually from the night before There are likely to be some closely related questions that we can deal with in one shot we'll maybe hold off answering for a little while but throw them out there and we will pick them up. Reason for edit - clumsy typing was bound to result in allegations of drunkeness Edited February 25, 2010 by leeslover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 It would be rash to claim that I am ever entirely sober, least of all when I am off work, but if I was drunk it was only residually from the night before There are likely to be some closely related questions that we can deal with in one shot we'll maybe hold off answering for a little while but throw them out there and we will pick them up. Reason for edit - clumsy typing was bound to result in allegations of drunkeness Excellent report - much appreciated - thanks lads. and thanks to Messrs Corney, Hardy & Joy too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 he talked it up as a loss...he said it as if it was from TTA own pocket. The 10k will have been the expected sales they will have budgeted to have made from that day the fixture didn't get played so thats what they lost out on. He may have said it to sound like we threw away £10ks worth of actual pies but that wasn't going to happen especially if big gordon was about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The 10k will have been the expected sales they will have budgeted to have made from that day the fixture didn't get played so thats what they lost out on. He may have said it to sound like we threw away £10ks worth of actual pies but that wasn't going to happen especially if big gordon was about 10k's worth of sales, at £3 a pie (dont know how much they cost, so guessing) would be over 3000 pies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 10k's worth of sales, at £3 a pie (dont know how much they cost, so guessing) would be over 3000 pies! The catering doesn't begin and end at pies and didn't we have 2 home games called off over christmas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The catering doesn't begin and end at pies and didn't we have 2 home games called off over christmas? It never begins or ends with a pie for me... Usually sold out by the time I get to the front of the queue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 It never begins or ends with a pie for me... Usually sold out by the time I get to the front of the queue.... I have been able to get pies at half time at every home game except Leeds in the cup which was a tea time kick off in the main stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I have been able to get pies at half time at every home game except Leeds in the cup which was a tea time kick off in the main stand. I have only been once this season... I believe its less of a "rush" these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I have been able to get pies at half time at every home game except Leeds in the cup which was a tea time kick off in the main stand. I've never failed to get one, either. Main stand upper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I've never failed to get one, either. Main stand upper. Try the Rochdale Road end when we used to get a crowd... Was impossible... My understanding is that the Main Stand is one of the better places to get a pie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 We touched on piegate, will come back about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) As you will be aware... a big well done for doing it and reporting back,i think its fair to say in this day and age,clubs like ours are usually cloak and dagger,so for you to actually have been able to do this i think is great. one point i did pick up on,is that at the time didnt they say they knocked down the broadway stand as it was costing 475k to maintain....or should they have said it was costing 475k to maintain the whole ground....as the figures you quoted are about 87k to maintain the one stand. the other very worrying thing is only 2800 season ticket holders,this is not being affected by price either now,so i hope they are ready for a big shock when renewals come round this time. Edited February 25, 2010 by Ackey Reduced Quote Size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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