Witty Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 You can count me in with that pocket of fans Dave. This is my 36th season and I have a ST, but have hardly been such is the level of apathy toward all things OAFC related. Like you it has been coming for a few years during which I kept my ST going as I still enjoyed the social side of going to the match, but it has tempered off with my ever decreasing enjoyment of football related matters. In the last two seasons I have spent my £600+ and been to 16 games at BP, I haven't been since Huddersfield (though I did miss an eagerly anticipated game against L**ds through illness). I bet I can't gather enough interest to go to another half dozen games this season. It isn't too many years ago that the thought of missing a home game was utterly unthinkable and about 75% of away games were attended as well. I've been to one this season at Millwall because I was working in London, and maybe 5 last season. The club has gone past the point of stagnation now in my opinion. Too many false dawns and too much apathy around the place for me to care enough other than to morbidly trawl through the boards to see where the next stumbling block is lying for the club to trip over. Maybe it is a case of apathetic fans dragging the club down, maybe the opposite is the case, but there is an air of ‘terminal patient’ around BP at the moment and if the club is to survive something needs to change soon. Lack of ambition in signing many a journeyman/ players obviously not good nor capable enough, the farcical thought (well, in my mind it is) that Failsworth may be the solution in a ground that even without having seen a line on a piece of paper reeks of 'it'll do while we get out'. Lack of discipline, continuous February collapses and now a team, which from what little I have seen this season, that looks like it is so out of its depth that the FL may as well relegate it now to save the remaining hardy souls the heartache in May. There seems to be very little link any more between club and fans, and whilst we should all be grateful for our financial bailout from TTA 6 years ago (or however long ago it is) it seems more and more like a costly and temporary reprieve. I'm not sure what would get me interested again, and that being the case I'm not in a position to ask the questions that need asking. There are other people more suited to doing those things. If they were giving STs away for next season right now, I wouldn't take one. Hopefully they will turn it around, but I fear they won't. In a few years I will just be another statistic in the number of hardcore fans that eventually drift away into being casual supporters. I for one, think that is really, really sad. Derek. Not a regular poster on here, and expect to get slaughtered for my post but here goes... Derek's post sums up exactly how I feel at the moment, and as a saeson ticket holder of nealy 25 years I'm not proud to admit it. I was actually glad when the Boxing day game was called off. I think what's doing for me is that I see that without the money there is only one way the club is going. All I see is continuous loan signings to try and boost the squad and players who are simply not good enough, and by far worse, play without an ounce of passion. Lets just hope City sell Richards and we can add a touch of quality with the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Landlord at the Rifle Range. For two pints of lager and a packet of crisps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Not a regular poster on here, and expect to get slaughtered for my post but here goes... Derek's post sums up exactly how I feel at the moment, and as a saeson ticket holder of nealy 25 years I'm not proud to admit it. I was actually glad when the Boxing day game was called off. No slaughter from me - I know exactly how you and Derek feel, although I can't claim to have been as loyal for as long as either of you. In fact, the likelihood that more people on here will agree with you than slaughter you says all it needs to about the club's current state and prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hometownclub Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Not a regular poster on here, and expect to get slaughtered for my post but here goes... Derek's post sums up exactly how I feel at the moment, and as a saeson ticket holder of nealy 25 years I'm not proud to admit it. I was actually glad when the Boxing day game was called off. I think what's doing for me is that I see that without the money there is only one way the club is going. All I see is continuous loan signings to try and boost the squad and players who are simply not good enough, and by far worse, play without an ounce of passion. Lets just hope City sell Richards and we can add a touch of quality with the money. No slaughter from me either. I'm a ST holder and have been for many years, I haven't missed a home match this season but I've got to say my current level of enjoyment at watching the team is as low as I can remember. The game has changed imeasurably even since the 90's, lower league clubs very rarely seem to pay a fee for a player anymore and we just get this merry go round of journeyman pro's who do their 2 years at a club then move on. The decent players move on because they can get a better financial deal at another club like Wellens and Porter and the poorer players are released and are just looking to find another club. Either way it hasn't made for great watching at BP for quite some time now, 2009 was an absolute shocker for the club both in terms of result and more importantly in terms of entertainment, fans are walking away in their droves with attendances plummeting year on year. Unfortunately the TTA are unwilling or unable to invest sufficiently in the club to arrest this slide. That said I'd probably still go and watch if we were in the Conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I think every Anti-Failsworther realises that this is it: Failsworth is going to happen. There's not much point discussing alternatives. There aren't any, for a number of different reasons. Precisely. And it will change the nature of the club from one that, however distantly, could dream of doing something that makes the whole country sit up and take notice, to one content to merely stave off bankruptcy and serve up an endless diet of lower division football for a dwindling band of the faithful. Failsworth represents the deliberate creation of another, Rochdale, Bury, Shrewsbury etc etc-type footballing minnow. A step or two down the footballing status ladder from what we've traditionally been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Precisely. And it will change the nature of the club from one that, however distantly, could dream of doing something that makes the whole country sit up and take notice, to one content to merely stave off bankruptcy and serve up an endless diet of lower division football for a dwindling band of the faithful. Failsworth represents the deliberate creation of another, Rochdale, Bury, Shrewsbury etc etc-type footballing minnow. A step or two down the footballing status ladder from what we've traditionally been. Intersting point that last sentence. I'd love to know how many seasons we have spent in each league. Does anyone knwo where the tally is? Apart from the top flight, and a good few consecutive seasons in the old 2nd in the late70/80's I supect the majority is 3rd & 4th (old money) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 (edited) Intersting point that last sentence. I'd love to know how many seasons we have spent in each league. Does anyone knwo where the tally is? Apart from the top flight, and a good few consecutive seasons in the old 2nd in the late70/80's I supect the majority is 3rd & 4th (old money) Not exact but pretty much.... 62 years in the top two divisions 42 years in the bottom two divisions This is going back to the Pine Villa days... EDIT: Adjusted to remove the war years when the league was suspended.... Edited January 4, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Intersting point that last sentence. I'd love to know how many seasons we have spent in each league. Does anyone knwo where the tally is? Apart from the top flight, and a good few consecutive seasons in the old 2nd in the late70/80's I supect the majority is 3rd & 4th (old money) Yes, we probably have. This does not mean, however, that we haven't traditionally had, on the whole, bigger crowds on average, and a larger latent fanbase, than the minnow clubs mentioned. Oldham is a bigger town than, say, Bury, Shrewsbury, Colchester or Scunthorpe, and the club has always had a bigger, if largely untapped, potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Not exact but pretty much.... 52 years in the top two divisions 53 years in the bottom two divisions I may be missing out a year or two... This is going back to the Pine Villa days... It's completely irrelevant anyway when you consider that the crux of the problem at the moment is that we have a whole generation of fans that grew up on football in the second-tier and experienced the PL and Wembley years. These fans seem to be prominent among those currently drifting away in disillusion at the apparent giving up on any attempt to get back there. As if spending a lot of time in the lower divisions precludes ambitions to establish a club at a higher level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 (edited) It's completely irrelevant anyway when you consider that the crux of the problem at the moment is that we have a whole generation of fans that grew up on football in the second-tier and experienced the PL and Wembley years. These fans seem to be prominent among those currently drifting away in disillusion at the apparent giving up on any attempt to get back there. As if spending a lot of time in the lower divisions precludes ambitions to establish a club at a higher level. I got it wrong... Just adjusted it.... 62 years in the top two divisions 42 years in the bottom two divisions This is going back to the Pine Villa days... Adjusted to remove the war years when the league was suspended.... Would be unfair to include inactive years... Edited January 4, 2010 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Why not wait for the plans and then give us your opinion? What difference is actually seeing the plans supposed to make? Even if there are non-football facilities with money-making potential, a 12000 capacity (or is it 10000?), nonetheless suggests that the intention is to be 'self-sustaining' at this level or below (where nearly all of the rest of the clubs with stadiums so small reside.) Hence, any monies raised will go into keeping the club afloat as opposed to seriously advancing up the divisions. Nor should we forget that, operating on the fringe of the city, any facilities will have serious local competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 How can this information form a basis on anything other than speculation for both sides of the argument. TTA have said some things including they want the club to be self sustaining, is that not a positive thing? What, exactly, is self-sustaining supposed to mean? Are there any other football models on which our 'plan' is to be based? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 We could become 'self-sustainable' tomorrow by cutting our wage bill. Of course this would lead to lower interest in the club, lesser income and a consequential decline in sustainable level, but that will probably be how the story eventually unfolds anyway. Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Read it again, I've helped you 0000. Why do the most enthusiastic of the backers of the Failsworth project-the most serious move the club has made in its entire history-seem to want people to stop talking about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outoftheblue Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 But in realistic terms, it's Failsworth or bust. Quite literally. Or failsworth AND bust. It's the answer that suits TTA rather than the answer that suits the future of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 You can count me in with that pocket of fans Dave. This is my 36th season and I have a ST, but have hardly been such is the level of apathy toward all things OAFC related. Like you it has been coming for a few years during which I kept my ST going as I still enjoyed the social side of going to the match, but it has tempered off with my ever decreasing enjoyment of football related matters. In the last two seasons I have spent my £600+ and been to 16 games at BP, I haven't been since Huddersfield (though I did miss an eagerly anticipated game against L**ds through illness). I bet I can't gather enough interest to go to another half dozen games this season. It isn't too many years ago that the thought of missing a home game was utterly unthinkable and about 75% of away games were attended as well. I've been to one this season at Millwall because I was working in London, and maybe 5 last season. The club has gone past the point of stagnation now in my opinion. Too many false dawns and too much apathy around the place for me to care enough other than to morbidly trawl through the boards to see where the next stumbling block is lying for the club to trip over. Maybe it is a case of apathetic fans dragging the club down, maybe the opposite is the case, but there is an air of ‘terminal patient’ around BP at the moment and if the club is to survive something needs to change soon. Lack of ambition in signing many a journeyman/ players obviously not good nor capable enough, the farcical thought (well, in my mind it is) that Failsworth may be the solution in a ground that even without having seen a line on a piece of paper reeks of 'it'll do while we get out'. Lack of discipline, continuous February collapses and now a team, which from what little I have seen this season, that looks like it is so out of its depth that the FL may as well relegate it now to save the remaining hardy souls the heartache in May. There seems to be very little link any more between club and fans, and whilst we should all be grateful for our financial bailout from TTA 6 years ago (or however long ago it is) it seems more and more like a costly and temporary reprieve. I'm not sure what would get me interested again, and that being the case I'm not in a position to ask the questions that need asking. There are other people more suited to doing those things. If they were giving STs away for next season right now, I wouldn't take one. Hopefully they will turn it around, but I fear they won't. In a few years I will just be another statistic in the number of hardcore fans that eventually drift away into being casual supporters. I for one, think that is really, really sad. Derek. Another superb post from DW1968. Hits the nail on the head again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 It's the answer that suits TTA rather than the answer that suits the future of the club. Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Not exact but pretty much.... 62 years in the top two divisions 42 years in the bottom two divisions This is going back to the Pine Villa days... EDIT: Adjusted to remove the war years when the league was suspended.... Thanks That is better than I thought, being honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 QUOTE (outoftheblue @ Jan 4 2010, 15:04 PM) It's the answer that suits TTA rather than the answer that suits the future of the club. Bingo! Why do some people assume they are diametrically opposite. In my eyes, there is a bit of compromise. NB Not ideal for the club, and not ideal for the TTA. At the moment, the TTA seem to be slightly worse, if Failsworth gets built as intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outoftheblue Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 (edited) QUOTE (outoftheblue @ Jan 4 2010, 15:04 PM) It's the answer that suits TTA rather than the answer that suits the future of the club. Why do some people assume they are diametrically opposite. In my eyes, there is a bit of compromise. NB Not ideal for the club, and not ideal for the TTA. At the moment, the TTA seem to be slightly worse, if Failsworth gets built as intended. As none of us know the true figures, such as how much OMBC are helping out financially, and the real value of the BP land etc, then all that we can do is make our own minds up based on; a) How we see the deal affecting both us and TTA based on our own understanding of the football business. and b ) What we are told by TTA who have 3 years first hand knowledge of the football business at the sharp end. On reflection, it would appear that (b ) would be the correct route to follow, as there is no substitute for experience. However, given that TTA have failed to deliver on every promise so far, and weren't able to foresee a recession that was standing up and waving a flag, I'd rather trust my own intuition. I've no problem with anyone else choosing to adopt the 'TTA know best' line, as long as those people accept that I'm not, and never have been convinced of TTA's agenda. I'm just rambling on now cos I've nothing better to do before leaving work Edited January 4, 2010 by outoftheblue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Why do some people assume they are diametrically opposite. I don't. TTA's Plans A (20k-ish development at Ferney Fields) and B (the full 16k-ish redevelopment of BP), whether or not they were ever truly realistic, were both plans I happily endorsed as being right for the club and, so I thought, displayed a real ambition on behalf of TTA to establish us back in the second tier. I suppose it was cruelly inevitable, given the passing of time and our continued stagnation on the pitch, that Plan C would be less ambitious, but what we are left with is worse still. It's obvious but it bears repeating - once we leave BP and spend the money, that is it - done, finished, over; we have ONE chance to get it right. Failsworth is the final throw of TTA's dice, their last chance to deliver something that goes at least part way to meeting the challenges they set themselves when they took over - to run a football club and to redevelop it to their own business model before they sell up and move on. What it doesn't do is provide the long term answer the club needs - rather than opening up all the possibilities of revitalisation that a move away from or redevelopment of Boundary Park should do, it cements our future in the small time, lower league at best, in a smaller stadium with a few "community" facilities that at best pay lip service to the commercial sustainability ideal. Our journey under TTA started off with dreams of an all-singing, all-dancing, self-funding 5-star luxury resort. It looks like ending with a Travelodge. Or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Our journey under TTA started off with dreams of an all-singing, all-dancing, self-funding 5-star luxury resort. It looks like ending with a Travelodge. Or nothing. One false messiah followed by three false messiahs. It could only happen at Latics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I don't. TTA's Plans A (20k-ish development at Ferney Fields) and B (the full 16k-ish redevelopment of BP), whether or not they were ever truly realistic, were both plans I happily endorsed as being right for the club and, so I thought, displayed a real ambition on behalf of TTA to establish us back in the second tier. I suppose it was cruelly inevitable, given the passing of time and our continued stagnation on the pitch, that Plan C would be less ambitious, but what we are left with is worse still. It's obvious but it bears repeating - once we leave BP and spend the money, that is it - done, finished, over; we have ONE chance to get it right. Failsworth is the final throw of TTA's dice, their last chance to deliver something that goes at least part way to meeting the challenges they set themselves when they took over - to run a football club and to redevelop it to their own business model before they sell up and move on. What it doesn't do is provide the long term answer the club needs - rather than opening up all the possibilities of revitalisation that a move away from or redevelopment of Boundary Park should do, it cements our future in the small time, lower league at best, in a smaller stadium with a few "community" facilities that at best pay lip service to the commercial sustainability ideal. Our journey under TTA started off with dreams of an all-singing, all-dancing, self-funding 5-star luxury resort. It looks like ending with a Travelodge. Or nothing. Yup agree with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 How many clubs are self-sustaining at the moment? Who are they? What facilities do they offer? This is the big question- in our division I can only think of Leeds who are essentially self-sustaining cos they ripped off the tax man and realistically are a division below where they should be minimum (so have the same sort of gate but a much reduced wage bill). Looking throughout the Leagues- Chelsea may be self-sustaining at the mo but that's only because Abramovic pumped in the GDP of Latvia to get them success and therefore popularity which they have then exploited by ripping off the season ticket holders and other clubs. None of the other top 4 are self-sustaining. Stoke, Wolves, Brum, possibly Hull, Notlob, Fulham and Rovers may be close but they are all going to be 8th at best this season and are enjoying their season(s) in the sun but might end up doing a Forest/Wednesday/Leeds trying to stay there, and quite a few spent big to get there. In the Championship- the Geordies have a shot but it depends what % of Premiership wages they are paying those that stayed on. Doubt too many of the others are earning what they are spending to try and get into the promise land. Some teams not trying to get into the promise land this year (so the likes of Barnsley, Scunny and the donkey boys) may have a shot but seems doubtful. Ditto most of our league- can see Exeter being close (in the conference a couple of years ago), Stockport since they have no money probably are self-sustaining (i.e. what little they make they spend and can't spend any more), Trannies may be similar and possibly Wycombe (depends who owns the ground with that one- do Wasps own it or do Wycombe- so making money from Wasps). The league below who knows- rumour has it Dale have been self-sustaining for ages, quite a lot of teams may be self-sustaining but I doubt Rotherham are. Has anyone seen the trend here? To be self-sustaining in football in the current economic climate within the game you either have to spend big and get the success (not guaranteed and can be very risky- see Leeds) to get you up to the Prem and find some talent to keep you there. Or you have to get lucky have a good run, usually with a bunch of players you've got on the cheap or trained yourselves from kids and have a manager who isn't garbage or so over-rated that his wages are too big and get promoted to a level that gives you gates beyond your wage bill. Or be prepared for a relegation battle? All football clubs offer up very similar non-match facilities, you have to have the extra pazazz to get yours used- I know why my Mum uses Bolton a lot- because it has good transport links, good parking, reasonable facilities, is roughly in the middle of where she covers and they don't charge what others (so PLC and hotels) charge. We may be able to offer similar but what we have now transported to Failsworth is not going to cut it. Amazingly enough Football was sustainable before Sky and the Premiership came in I think, until Sky and the Premiership (and the CL) go away football at all levels is going to struggle to remain sustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ritchie Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 I'm not likely to renew my season ticket as things stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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