leeslover Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'm still bewildered how "copper :censored:ed up" was pretty much obvious to anybody who gave it any thought, confirmed by the Taylor Report yet the saga still goes on.I think it's a matter of (quite a few) degrees. I certainly still believed for years that rowdy behaviour and charging the gate was a factor and thought that it was failure to control said bad behaviour that was the allegation against the police. Those of us of a certain age know fans weren't as genteel back then. It takes this level of detail to show that there really were no special factors other than how they ran it on the day. What is truly staggering is the cover up, but I'll respect the wish of the families QC not to speculate over much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Coppers at fault allied to fans without tickets. There's your truth. the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Coppers at fault allied to fans without tickets. There's your truth. the end.I'd be interested to see the evidence that supports the ticketless fans claim you made being a serious contributory factor. The terrace was below capacity. The Taylor Report found nothing to back it up. The HSE estimated the terrace to be below capacity. There were unsold tickets at Anfield. You could well be perpetuating myth from the lies and cover up that followed. The link below has this quote in it. The picture highlights how poorly supporters were distributed across the whole terrace. The HSE supplied three estimates of the number of fans who had entered that day based on video evidence. The first number was 9,267 fans were inside; the second best estimate was that 9,734 were inside and the maximum number given was 10,124. The problem clearly wasnt that there were too many fans, it was simply that too many fans were in the central two pens. http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2012/10/10/so-you-though-liverpool-fans-were-late-drunk-ticketless-at-hillsborough/ From the Taylor Report: The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets was suggested as a contributing factor. South Yorkshire Police suggested the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis, and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who entered the Leppings Lane end was below the official capacity of the stand. Eye witness reports suggested that tickets were available on the day and tickets for the Leppings Lane end were on sale from Anfield until the day before. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory. Police evasion Taylor concluded his criticism of South Yorkshire Police by describing senior officers in command as "defensive and evasive witnesses" who refused to accept any responsibility for error. In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the Inquiry. Sadly I must report that for the most part the quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank. It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, the South Yorkshire Police were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what occurred. ... [T]he police case was to blame the fans for being late and drunk, and to blame the Club for failing to monitor the pens. ... Such an unrealistic approach gives cause for anxiety as to whether lessons have been learnt. It would have been more seemly and encouraging for the future if responsibility had been faced. Edited March 13, 2015 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Sick of hearing about it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Sick of hearing about it now. Thankfully plenty of people aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Thankfully plenty of people aren't. Why thankfully? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmer1 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Why thankfully? Because the truth would not be coming out if nobody cared because they were sick of hearing about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Because the truth would not be coming out if nobody cared because they were sick of hearing about it! I care, of course I care. I just don't want it shoved in my face everywhere I turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I care, of course I care. I just don't want it shoved in my face everywhere I turn. Don't click on links with "Hillsborough" in them then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I care, of course I care. I just don't want it shoved in my face everywhere I turn. Unfortunate choice of phrase there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Don't click on links with "Hillsborough" in them then. Standard OWTB response. Didn't realise you had to click a link to read a paper or watch the news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Unfortunate choice of phrase there... Only because you want it to be. Just a normal sentence to normal minded folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The fact that the agencies of the state caused then lied about an incident where 96 citizens died. The police, courts, government, FA and media twisted and covered up not only this incident but as we are seeing countless others, demonising victims all the time whilst protecting their own position and feathering the nest of those that maintained the lies. There is a corruption that cuts right through the heart of this country that is finally being exposed and needs to be exposed further and for longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Standard OWTB response. Didn't realise you had to click a link to read a paper or watch the news. Turn channel/page over, ignore news on tv, watch something else all of these actions are available to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_lover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Turn channel/page over, ignore news on tv, watch something else all of these actions are available to you. So basically live in a cave in the mountains? A better idea would be stop blabbering on about it and let the courts do their thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjointed Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 So basically live in a cave in the mountains? A better idea would be stop blabbering on about it and let the courts do their thing. Of course let the courts sort it out, but people will talk about it in the pub, at work, at the game, even on forums like this all over the country. People want the truth and fortunately people kept blabbering and that is why we are getting closer to the truth of what really happened that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The fact that the agencies of the state caused then lied about an incident where 96 citizens died. The police, courts, government, FA and media twisted and covered up not only this incident but as we are seeing countless others, demonising victims all the time whilst protecting their own position and feathering the nest of those that maintained the lies. There is a corruption that cuts right through the heart of this country that is finally being exposed and needs to be exposed further and for longer. And you expect this to change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 And you expect this to change? To be fair Lags, you posted incorrect beliefs very recently. It helps when the truth is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 To be fair Lags, you posted incorrect beliefs very recently. It helps when the truth is out. Really, when? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Really, when? About fans without tickets being part of the cause. I used to think the same, but I don't think there's been any evidence of that at any of the inquiries. We could have sold enough tickets that you and me could have died if Latics were there that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 About fans without tickets being part of the cause. I used to think the same, but I don't think there's been any evidence of that at any of the inquiries. We could have sold enough tickets that you and me could have died if Latics were there that day. Likewise no one's disproved it also. I believe a number of elements came together that day. Ticketless fans being one of them. Poor treatment of fans (caged in) Poor behaviour of fans (prior behaviour which created the cages) Poor grounds not fit for purpose, poor stewarding, Poor policing (and subsequent shameful covering up) Lack of awareness what was occurring due to the attitude towards football followers who were treated like wild scum back in the day. Of course there were many many innocent victims who died that day not being apart of any of those elements above other than being a football fan wishing to attend the match. It was a tragic event without doubt, other than the sympathy to those families involved who have suffered, the major thing for me now to concentrate on is the high up police (and senior gov figures who undoutbably knew) who covered up brought to boot. I don't quite like the need to blame just the police.......it was as stated above, a lot of things coming together culminating in the worst possible outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Lack of awareness what was occurring due to the attitude towards football followers who were treated like wild scum back in the day. not been to an away game involving west yorks police lately then have you attitude unchanged they have the bigger gang and they are gonna prove it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Lack of awareness what was occurring due to the attitude towards football followers who were treated like wild scum back in the day. not been to an away game involving west yorks police lately then have you attitude unchanged they have the bigger gang and they are gonna prove it Yes I have......and you would know that. Football fans are treated better than back then without doubt. You're old enough to know exactly what football was like back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Likewise no one's disproved it also. Official estimates by the HSE of the number of people that entered the terrace are all below capacity for that end of the ground. The a Taylor Report was dismissive of the notion that ticketless fans in any way contributed to the situation. While we can all draw up a stereotype of the Scouse Scally, Liverpool fans attended big matches and there is nothing that suggests they had a habit of overloading grounds by entering without tickets. You've let the bollocks spouted by officialdom and press in the immediate aftermath cloud your judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lags Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Official estimates by the HSE of the number of people that entered the terrace are all below capacity for that end of the ground. The a Taylor Report was dismissive of the notion that ticketless fans in any way contributed to the situation. While we can all draw up a stereotype of the Scouse Scally, Liverpool fans attended big matches and there is nothing that suggests they had a habit of overloading grounds by entering without tickets. You've let the bollocks spouted by officialdom and press in the immediate aftermath cloud your judgement. Nothing or no bollocks is clouding my judgement. I have yet to attend a semi final or final where I have not seen ticketless fans. Ever. I wasn't at Hillsborough that day, however I doubt the above was different. As far as scouse scally's go, they do have them like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.