Hillsborough E-Petition

[Monty Burns]

Anyone with half a brain knew what happened. And anyone with half a brain doesnt believe there was no government cover up.

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

Biased press/MSM, government and police cover-ups, My question is, What's :censored:ing new??

What did you expect?.

Put the blame onto the fans, because they were drunken, thieving, working class scum, sounds about the right course of action the government of the time would have taken.

The vast majority of Liverpool fans let down by the unprepared police/emergency services and the ensuing smear campaign.

[razza699]

Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time.

 

Jesus

[singe]

Biased press/MSM, government and police cover-ups, My question is, What's :censored:ing new??

What did you expect?.

Put the blame onto the fans, because they were drunken, thieving, working class scum, sounds about the right course of action the government of the time would have taken.

The vast majority of Liverpool fans let down by the unprepared police/emergency services and the ensuing smear campaign.

I really don't think this is a party political issue, and should not detract from the fact criminal action was undertaken by the police on their own.

The po,lice very blatantly and bascially simply crossd out documents. Nothing to do with politics, just self preservation,

I think it is a political issue

Blair was just as cosy with the police/papers

And Labour had ample time to investigate and relase the docs. It's clear now why they didn't

 

The whole thing needs a clean up.

You thought this stuff went out in the 70's.

[JoeP]

Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time.

 

I'm often embarrassed by some of the drivel posted on this site by fellow Latics fans, but I think you've topped the lot here.

 

Well done.

Edited September 13, 2012 by JoeP

[Diego_Sideburns]

It's interesting to read the editorial in 'When Saturday Comes' following the disaster in 1989.

http://www.wsc.co.uk...aster-editorial

[Guest]

Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time.

 

I honestly can't think of what to write knowing that children use this site!

 

The worst post ever? Probably

Edited September 13, 2012 by Guest

[leeslover]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9541641/Hillsborough-truth-must-now-end-arms-race-of-offensive-chants-between-Liverpool-and-Manchester-United-fans.html

 

This made me think. Many of have probably gone past the limits of taste at one time or another.

[Ernie For England]

Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time.

 

Got to be a wind up? If its not then wow, what a fool.

[oafcmetty]

http://www.telegraph...nited-fans.html

 

This made me think. Many of have probably gone past the limits of taste at one time or another.

Calls united fans cretins. Works for me.

[JoeLatics]

Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time.

 

You utter, utter moron. You make Lee Hughes look thoughtful and intelligent...

[Senor_Coconut]

They deserve to die then, after some of the Liverpool fans rioted in Belgium......?

 

That what you are saying?

 

 

Yep, thats exactly what I meant with that post, well done for seeing the real meaning behind it.

[Pine Villains]

No doubt I'll get negged to bits for this but they really should let it go

 

They didn't.

[rosa]

As a great philosopher once said, "And after all this time, they don't want to believe us...and if they don't believe us now, will they ever believe us?"

 

David Cameron's ridiculous comments about "a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there" certainly seem to be applicable to some people. Just not the ones he was referring to.

[jimsleftfoot]

I honestly can't think of what to write knowing that children use this site!

 

The worst post ever? Probably

 

I get to use Halon's Razor again:

 

'Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity'

 

Though I will add naivity to.

[oafcprozac]

For those people who are still subscribing to the long held misinformed opinions of that day in 1989 I say...

 

Watch the news reports from the day

 

 

 

This is where the initial seeds of your opinions were formed.

 

THEN:

 

Read both The Interim and Full Taylor Reports

 

http://www.southyork...erim Report.pdf

 

http://www.epcollege...rt.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

Then read the report published on Wednesday...

 

http://hillsborough..../HIP_report.pdf

 

Finally, watch any of the numerous documentaries on You Tube and Jimmy McGovern's Powerful Drama (Sunday on ITV3 too) , which has been PROVEN to be the truth.

 

Then if you still have your doubts, read

 

HIllsborough: The Truth, by Phil Scraton

 

Within that lot you will realise why the families would not let it go, it has NEVER been about compensation, it's been about the truth. 23 years and not knowing what happened to your son or daughter, instead there's a blanket coroner's verdict. How would you feel?

Edited September 14, 2012 by oafcprozac

[opinions4u]

I have always struggled with the suggestions the fans were to blame.

 

Having been closely marshalled around top flight football grounds by the police, including an FA Cup semi-final at Goodison Park and games at Hillsborough, I know what it was like in the eighties. I've seen the hooiganism too. There's even a part of me that understands the first instinct of a policeman that he's dealing with crowd trouble, not safety on that day.

 

My first sight of what was going on at Hillsborough was about 3.35pm through a TV shop window in Piccadilly Gardens. No commentary in my ears. No subtitles. But an immediate feeling that, despite police forming a cordon across the pitch, this was not hooliganism it was something far worse. You could tell. It wasn't Heysel reincarnated. A ten minute walk back to my car park. Radio on. Knowledge of deaths. Commentary being replayed from around kick-off stating that the Leppings Lane End was badly over-crowded.

 

So the police made errors. They didn't respond well when those errors turned to tragedy. I even understand the immediate instinct to deflect blame. But I never for a second imagined the depth of cover up that followed. That shocks me to the core. I suppose it shouldn't. But it really does.

 

The Taylor Report called it right. Police error - don't blame the fans. He got it right in pretty quick time. But the damage of slur against Liverpool supporters that day was already done. So much so that some people still point the finger of blame at them.

 

All they did is go to a football match.

 

It's what I do every week. It could so easily have been any one of us there.

Edited September 14, 2012 by opinions4u

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

I really don't think this is a party political issue, and should not detract from the fact criminal action was undertaken by the police on their own.

The po,lice very blatantly and bascially simply crossd out documents. Nothing to do with politics, just self preservation,

I think it is a political issue

Blair was just as cosy with the police/papers

And Labour had ample time to investigate and relase the docs. It's clear now why they didn't

 

The whole thing needs a clean up.

You thought this stuff went out in the 70's.

I agree, and i'm not picking on the tories, If labour were in power, i would imagine the same cover-up would have happened. The police "altering evidence" How many times does this have to happen before someone actually attempts to clean it up though!

I wouldn't want the deaths of 96 people on my hands and i can imagine that the police who were directly involved did everything they could to shift the blame.

[leeslover]

I agree, and i'm not picking on the tories, If labour were in power, i would imagine the same cover-up would have happened. The police "altering evidence" How many times does this have to happen before someone actually attempts to clean it up though!

I wouldn't want the deaths of 96 people on my hands and i can imagine that the police who were directly involved did everything they could to shift the blame.

Takes me back to when they shot that Brazillian guy, what followed was very similar with instant stories coming out about him jumping the barriers and so on. In that one you could even see the officers having a conference in a huddle immediately afterwards. And there was no CCTV. Much more convenient than saying that they missed the real guy because someone was having a piss and they couldn't nick him where they had planned because the firearms people had to call into Tescos to fill up.

[Diego_Sideburns]

From a fan of Stoke City:

 

Why Liverpool Should Never Walk Alone - By Admin ©

 

These are my thoughts and not the thoughts of the other Admins of TPB

 

We have a special hate for the Scousers.. which is odd Manchester is just up the road West Brom Wolves and Birmingham are all local teams ... its only right we berate them... I can’t miss out the Vale... my Brother is a Vale fan... the three eyed git!!

 

But Liverpool... everyone hates Liverpool and when you think about it the tide of DEEP hate turned 23 years ago.

 

The Police, The Government, The FA, UEFA and FIFA all passed comment and told us the ANIMALS had killed their own and not only that they had stolen from the dead and urinated on the bodies and Police - It was all true the Sun even put it on their front page... The world HATED Liverpool FC

 

Over the next few years it came out that the police had lied.. but be Honest EVERY single one of us thought "No Smoke Without Fire"... and the Hate went on.

 

23 years the survivors were made to feel like scum - some of them could not cope with the guilt of surviving - Those survivors were told they had killed the 96.

 

Yesterday and Today and over the next few day/weeks/months that guilt is going to be lifted - A massive injustice will be put right. It’s come to light that we were all lied to - We have hated and despised for the wrong reasons.. We were deceived and helped prevent the families of the 96 to move on.

 

No one is asking fans from around the world to take any sort of blame.. I’m in no way to blame... But ME, Admin © I’m offering an apology to Liverpool - I was given the wrong information and I used it to judge you unfairly – I’m sorry

 

Now is the time for this to be put to rest – It’s time for the world to know that the fans of Liverpool are not animals

 

And maybe it’s right that on Saturday we let them know that the families who were left alone for 23years will never ever have to walk alone again.

 

 

[maddog]

I've been very naive about the whole tragedy. I've made a u-turn.

 

I was 10 when it happened, and did not really like football. I remember it being on the telly, and not really taking notice of what was going on. I remember watching a TV programme on the 10th anniversary of the disaster on my own, and crying my eyes out at the realisation of how awful it all was - it took it that long for me to actively engage in wanting to understand, and allow myself to feel emotion at that tragedy.

 

I assumed (without having really analysed reports of what happened) there were a number of contributing factors, around the poorly-planned stewarding / policing of such a big crowd, the lay-out of the ground, and behaviour of the fans (-not because they were Liverpool fans, but because I have my opinions about how football fans in general CAN act at times).

 

I honestly can hold my naive hands up and say this whole appeal / petition / release of information thing sort of passed me by. I didn't see the point, and didn't get what it could achieve. In my naivety, not for one second did I believe any of the parties now under scrutiny would do that - or that the higher powers would let them get away with it.

 

I suppose it's almost easier to believe that coincidence and a minority of football fans caused this awful awful event, rather than believe that the people meant to tell the truth, and make good decisions, and keep us safe, and uphold the law (things that make people feel safe in our civilised society) - failed so catastrophically to do their job..... and then failed so badly, morally.

 

If people do still believe this was down to drunken, aggressive, rowdy football fans, it's a defence against how horrific, and society-changing, the findings in the report this week are.

[rosa]

Just finished reading the report. As i said on the other thread, i thought i knew what to expect - I had family there, I've been obsessively reading anything to do with Hillsborough since it happened, I knew how bad both the disaster and the cover-up were, at best/worst it was just going to confirm and vindicate what we've been saying for the last two decades. But I'm stunned at some of the stuff that's come out. However bad you think it was, it was worse. I knew there was a culture of complacency regarding safety at football grounds in the 80s. I didn't expect to find out that the Sheffield Wednesday chairman responded to the Leppings Lane crush in the Spurs-Wolves game in 1981 by berating the police for letting fans onto the pitch, thereby making the ground look "untidy", and dismissing the argument that it was necessary to prevent fatalities by saying "Bollocks - no-one would have been killed!" I knew that blood alcohol tests were taken from all the victims, including the children. I didn't expect to find out that blood alcohol tests were taken from survivors in hospital, without their knowledge, and with no documentation in the medical records (so presumably they weren't carried out for clinical reasons). I knew that Duckenfield didn't have the necessary experience to be in charge that day. I didn't know he hadn't worked at Hillsborough AT ALL for ten years. I knew the police were more concerned with containing fans than ensuring their safety. I didn't expect to learn that, after the dead bodies started coming over the fence, they called for dog handlers before they called for ambulances. I knew there was evidence that victims could have been saved well after the 3.15pm cut-off point; I didn't realise just how clear that was from the post-mortems, and how poorly interpreted the medical evidence was. I didn't expect to find out that the police ran criminal records checks on the victims in the hope of finding convictions that could be used in character assassinations. I didn't expect to find that one of the solicitors supposed to be representing the families requested early appointments for the individual mini-inquests on the basis that the bereaved families would get pissed beforehand otherwise (‘There is one family who would swell the coffers of the local hostelry before they arrived, so if they were a 9.00am start’), and that he actually suggested a 3.06pm cut-off time for evidence. I knew the police had altered statements to cover their own arses. I didn't realise just how blatant it was. Any criticism of the police operation was removed, supposedly to remove 'opinion and conjecture', but 'opinions' about the Liverpool fans were mostly left in, and even edited to make them appear as factual statements. For example:

 

In the recollection provided by PC Robert Burkinshaw, the following paragraph was marked for deletion: "Again I have heard other officers’ comments about the policing outside the ground which include statements that there was no other option open to Mr Marshall but to open the gate and relieve the pressure on the wall. Others have commented that there were not enough officers outside the ground at that point to cope with the numbers arriving. These were no doubt depleted by the taking of prisoners. The general feeling is that the …" Yet part of the final sentence was retained and reconstructed as a discrete sentence: "The fans arrived too late, and a lot of them under the influence of drink, to get into the ground in time for the kick off."

 

And as for 'The Truth' allegations.... I just assumed that was pissed off coppers gobbing off to a reporter, who ran the story without bothering to corroborate it. But no, it was pissed off (and exhausted, and traumatised) coppers gobbing off to an MP, who was immediately told by senior officers to 'take it with a pinch of salt', and instead he repeated the story to a reporter, who (ahem) 're-arranged' his comments. However bad you think it was, however catastrophic you thought the failures at every level were, however badly you think the families and survivors were treated....it was MUCH worse.

Sorry for rambling on, but if you can, read the report. It'll leave you in no doubt as to why the families wouldn't 'let it go'.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

[opinions4u]

A link to a letter from a Spurs fan to Liverpool FC commenting on the 1981 FA Cup semi-final "experience".

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000028950001.pdf#page=2

[rudemedic]

Re: The testing of blood alcohol on the dead, especially, the dead under16/18. Apparently, according to my Dad, who ought to know a lot more about it than presumably every one on here. In those days, (might not be the case now), if you request a blood alcohol level on say all the adults, which personally I think was necessary, you get it on the children as the lab couldn't distinguish who was who, until afterwards. So the lab gets at least 96 bottles of blood and it runs the same tests on each one.

 

The testing of the survivors, without their consent is a major issue. Is there a statute of limitations on assault as conducting a blood test without the patients implied consent is assault. It becomes a bit of a grey issue if the health staff are running blood tests for legitimate reasons and someone ticks the box for toxicology. I wouldn't automatically assume the medical staff didn't know as record keeping won't have been as good in those days and even now any normal blood tests don't always get marked down in medical records.

[rosa]

A group of Liverpool fans are doing a sponsored walk from Hillsborough to Anfield on December 14th to raise money for the Hillsborough Family Support Group and the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, Boundary Park's one of the grounds on their route.