opinions4u Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It looks like an appropriate outcome is being reached. I really do hope it helps those families who's grief will only have been worsened by the actions of officialdom after the event. For me, it doesn't matter that they were Scousers. Or that the game was in Yorkshire. They were football fans. Going to a football match at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon. Like I did last week. Like I will do again next week. The authorities let them down and then lied about it, blaming the fans. The politicians picked up on these lies and repeated them. The ill-informed continue to repeat them today. People died because those in responsible positions made big mistakes. And never really faced the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If there are any sceptics left - sceptics of the fans on the day, or sceptics of the need for action - I suggest you watch Steve Rotheram's speech from yesterday evening. It's freely available on the Liverpool FC and Parliament websites. What you won't see is the emotion in the public gallery, where the families were, when he reads out the names of the 96, or the emotion in the normally ultra-cynical press gallery, where the odd Hansard reporter was struggling (and failing) to keep it together. I'll not forget it. Here's how the speech ended. "We in Liverpool refer collectively to those lost at Hillsborough simply as “the 96”, but each of the 96 was an individual—a father, sister, brother, daughter, son; an irreplaceable person loved by others and with their own unique life story. “The 96” trips off the tongue far too easily. It is not until we read out each individual name on the Hillsborough memorial at Anfield that we realise just how long the list is. Parliament has never recorded their names in Hansard for posterity. Well, tonight, I can at least put one wrong right. John Alfred Anderson, 62. Colin Mark Ashcroft, 19. James Gary Aspinall, 18. Kester Roger Marcus Ball, 16. Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron, 67. Simon Bell, 17. Barry Sidney Bennett, 26. David John Benson, 22. David William Birtle, 22. Tony Bland, 22. Paul David Brady, 21. Andrew Mark Brookes, 26. Carl Brown, 18. David Steven Brown, 25. Henry Thomas Burke, 47. Peter Andrew Burkett, 24. Paul William Carlile, 19. Raymond Thomas Chapman, 50. Gary Christopher Church, 19. Joseph Clark, 29. Paul Clark, 18. Gary Collins, 22. Stephen Paul Copoc, 20. Tracey Elizabeth Cox, 23. James Philip Delaney, 19. Christopher Barry Devonside, 18. Christopher Edwards, 29. Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons, 34. Thomas Steven Fox, 21. Jon-Paul Gilhooley, 10. Barry Glover, 27. Ian Thomas Glover, 20. Derrick George Godwin, 24. Roy Harry Hamilton, 34. Philip Hammond, 14. Eric Hankin, 33. Gary Harrison, 27. Stephen Francis Harrison, 31. Peter Andrew Harrison, 15. David Hawley, 39. James Robert Hennessy, 29. Paul Anthony Hewitson, 26. Carl Darren Hewitt, 17. Nicholas Michael Hewitt, 16. Sarah Louise Hicks, 19. Victoria Jane Hicks, 15. Gordon Rodney Horn, 20. Arthur Horrocks, 41. Thomas Howard, 39. Thomas Anthony Howard, 14. Eric George Hughes, 42. Alan Johnston, 29. Christine Anne Jones, 27. Gary Philip Jones, 18. Richard Jones, 25. Nicholas Peter Joynes, 27. Anthony Peter Kelly, 29. Michael David Kelly, 38. Carl David Lewis, 18. David William Mather, 19. Brian Christopher Mathews, 38. Francis Joseph McAllister, 27. John McBrien, 18. Marion Hazel McCabe, 21. Joseph Daniel McCarthy, 21. Peter McDonnell, 21. Alan McGlone, 28. Keith McGrath, 17. Paul Brian Murray, 14. Lee Nicol, 14. Stephen Francis O’Neill, 17. Jonathon Owens, 18. William Roy Pemberton, 23. Carl William Rimmer, 21. David George Rimmer, 38. Graham John Roberts, 24. Steven Joseph Robinson, 17. Henry Charles Rogers, 17. Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton, 23. Inger Shah, 38. Paula Ann Smith, 26. Adam Edward Spearritt, 14. Philip John Steele, 15. David Leonard Thomas, 23. Patrik John Thompson, 35. Peter Reuben Thompson, 30. Stuart Paul William Thompson, 17. Peter Francis Tootle, 21. Christopher James Traynor, 26. Martin Kevin Traynor, 16. Kevin Tyrrell, 15. Colin Wafer, 19. Ian David Whelan, 19. Martin Kenneth Wild, 29. Kevin Daniel Williams, 15. Graham John Wright, 17. Rest in peace. Justice for the 96." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razza699 Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 looks like the petition worked :applause1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 looks like the petition worked :applause1: Steve Rotheram and many of the MPs speaking in the debate thanked all those who signed the petition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holden24 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I may become very unpopular here, but after seeing all the TV reports, and reading most newspaper reports, it was clear to me that the initial cause of the disaster was down to Liverpool fans arriving late, and trying to break down a gate in order to get in. The policeman in charge outside the ground was afraid that if the gate gave way people would be crushed. He therefore gave the order to open the gate. All the fans then ran to the tunnel in front of them. The outcome of which we all know. The police inside the ground then acted like complete imbeciles. The best course of action would have been for the policeman in charge outside to tell the police inside to get the kickoff delayed for 1/2 an hour. The fans outside may then have calmed down, and queued up in an orderly way (perhaps). The disaster would then have been avoided. The only people I can blame for this disaster were the Liverpool fans outside the ground, not the police. However the police were to blame by badly handling the situation. Also to blame was the way the terraces were penned and fenced. This was probably done on police advice, but many other grounds at the time were the same. Very unpopular, im sure if it happened at oldham you wouldnt " let it go". We learn by our mistakes, if we let the Tories and state cover up they will do it again. They came for the scousers, i wasnt a scouser, so i did nothing. What i hope comes out is the absolute hatred Thatcher had for football fans, please dont forget that. Im really interested in the discussions that went on in that Tory cabinet, Margaret Thatcher believed in the destruction of working class cohesion, anything that binded people together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowl Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. so every other club at the time were whiter than white? you sound like a scummy united fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. I didn't mean to +1 that, but wtf. While your point is accurate in relation to the Heysel stadium deaths, which I don't wish to understate, Liverpool fans didn't have a reputation for being involved in the excesses of hooliganism that was seen throughout the seventies and first half of the eighties. Possibly one of the reasons why what happened in Belgium was such a shock. It was doubtless a key part of history that gave those in charge at Hillsborough the opportunity to develop their fabrications and a contributory factor to the piss poor reporting that followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. Leeds have a bit of history as well, does that mean it was their fault that two of their fans were stabbed to death in Turkey? Everyone knows the trouble that follows the Old Firm, does that mean that hooliganism played a part in the Ibrox disaster? No-one has forgotten Heysel. The difference is that people were held accountable for Heysel. People went to prison. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough. There's a transcript of Steve Rotheram's speech here. The one bit that sticks out (especially after re-reading this thread) is this: So what are the facts about the Hillsborough disaster? For those that believe it was simply caused by fans turning up late – you are wrong – YOU ARE WRONG - in spite of a misprint on tickets requesting fans to turn up at 2.45pm and despite the fact that Liverpool fans only had 23 dilapidated turnstiles to enter the ground – (whilst Forest fans had access through 60), half of the 10,100 supporters were already in the ground before 2.30pm - but there was congestion outside and it was obvious that with 5,000 supporters still to enter the ground at 2.30pm, there needed to be a delay in kick-off. Anyone who has ever been to a match knows that there is always a higher entry rate as kick-off time approaches, - AND two years previous there had been a delayed kick-off to allow fans to get into the ground. But not this time, instead the response to the build up and congestion outside was to open a gate and allow fans onto the concourse - with disastrous consequences as there were no stewards or police inside to direct supporters into the half empty pens and away from the packed central pens.... Mr Speaker, another falsehood was the claim that these were ticketless fans – but even officers at the turnstiles rejected this - and the HSE, who later analysed the evidence of all those that entered this end, concluded that the total numbers were between 9,373 and 10,124. The capacity was 10,100 and so the myth of ticketless fans can also be dispelled. AND just to confirm this - so as to leave no doubt - the report by Lord Justice Taylor stated there was no substance that ticketless fans caused the disaster. People can speculate all they want about "if the Liverpool fans had turned up on time it wouldn't have happened" and "there must have been at least some fans without tickets trying to force their way in". The truth is that there's no evidence for that. The facts are that half of the fans were inside the ground half an hour before kick-off,that congestion built up due to a combination of the layout of the ground and a failure to manage the crowd (as had been done in previous years), and that there were no more fans in the Leppings Lane end than tickets sold. They're the facts. Believe whatever you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. What's that got to do with anything, Señor Coconutbrain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 What's that got to do with anything, Señor Coconutbrain? Could it be that the Señor is thinking along the following lines: At the Ibrox disaster as a fan. At Heysel as a player. At Hillsborough as a manager. If history teaches us anything, it’s that Kenny Dalglish should be kept away from football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Following the success of the last petition, they've now started one calling for the Sun to reveal its sources for their 'The Truth' story: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19350 I'll be honest, i'm not massively confident about how successful it'll be, but it's definitely worth signing. They should keep pushing while they've got the momentum of the debate and its publicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancy lad Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. They deserve to die then, after some of the Liverpool fans rioted in Belgium......? That what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Just a bump to publicise the petition about the death of Kevin Williams, the kid who died after 15 minutes had passed, beyond the cut off point set by the initial enquiry. It is only on about 28,000, considering over 100,000 signed the other petition this is poor: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19149 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Lets not forget these same Scousers had history when it comes to crowd disturbance, an infamous incident which got English clubs kicked out of Europe for 6 years. I know this is a very old comment but I've only just come across it. Regardless of whether you believe Scousers (just to adopt your sweeping tag) were to blame, what relevance does this have to whether the documents should be disclosed? None whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Another bump, only 17000 signatures short, if you haven't done it yet it only takes 2 minutes. https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19149 The kid went to a game of footie and didn't come back, due to some bizarre ruling his family's suffering has been worse than it needed to have been. The petition won't bring him back but it will help the family in some small way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Over 80,000 signatures in 3 days. Good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I may become very unpopular here, but after seeing all the TV reports, and reading most newspaper reports, it was clear to me that the initial cause of the disaster was down to Liverpool fans arriving late, and trying to break down a gate in order to get in. The policeman in charge outside the ground was afraid that if the gate gave way people would be crushed. He therefore gave the order to open the gate. All the fans then ran to the tunnel in front of them. The outcome of which we all know. The police inside the ground then acted like complete imbeciles. The best course of action would have been for the policeman in charge outside to tell the police inside to get the kickoff delayed for 1/2 an hour. The fans outside may then have calmed down, and queued up in an orderly way (perhaps). The disaster would then have been avoided. The only people I can blame for this disaster were the Liverpool fans outside the ground, not the police. However the police were to blame by badly handling the situation. Also to blame was the way the terraces were penned and fenced. This was probably done on police advice, but many other grounds at the time were the same. Do you still hold these views? (it's a genuine question. Today's information focuses heavily on what happened afterwards. But do you really think such a cover up would be needed if it was simply a case of late arrivals?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Do you still hold these views? (it's a genuine question. Today's information focuses heavily on what happened afterwards. But do you really think such a cover up would be needed if it was simply a case of late arrivals?) I can't answer for al bro, but I certainly will say that I have learnt a lot over the course of this thing, and no small amount of it via this website over the last few years. I am glad to accept that what I thought was right has been proven wrong via a number of disclosures, and I can only wish it hadn't taken so long for the full truth to come out. It was obvious a few years ago that a job had been done but I never guessed at the depth of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I've been stunned by the events of yesterday, the families of the 96 stayed with it even when faced with seemingly insurmountable odds. They didn't let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spadam Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time. Cloud cuckoo land. Wind up merchant. Fool. Which one? That view was patently wrong 23 years ago. It has become more obvious over time that the view you typed above is wrong. Yesterday's revelations are extraordinary in outing how wrong you are. Mud was thrown. For some, like you, it appears to have stuck. Whatever your reasons for typing that are, I don't know. But it makes me feel genuinely sick. Edited September 13, 2012 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Liverpool fans are pure scum how can they blame the police when they caused it. Why on earth David Cameron apologized is beyond me. I don't blame every fan that died but Liverpool should hold the majority of the blame. They should just move on. If it was a member of my family I wouldn't want it discussed all the time. You hit the nail on the head when you said 'is beyond me'. You obviously don't understand what happended yesterday but to put it simply, you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I don't blame every fan that died How very noble of you. Buffoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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