Parallels?

[slystallone]

I was pretty pissed off last night. That was just not good enough, just not an acceptable team performance; especially first half. Trying to pick the bones out of it today, I can't help but draw some worrying comparisons to what happened during Paul Dickov's time as manager.

 

It looks to me like LJ has, in his 1st full season, completely changed his ideas on team shape, tactics and overall ethos of play. The side last night bares minimal resemblance to one that played against Stevenage 1st game of the season.

 

The same thing happened with Dickov.

 

Dickov started off playing with 2 wide players who weren't the conventional winger-type, but who did a cracking job for the side, playing to a strict formation and shape. He had a big man, little man up front combo. The tempo of play was fast, the pressing all over the pitch was incessant and we looked to get the ball down and play whenever possible. It had the desired effect and results were very promising. Player like Jones, Lewis A, Bemba-Lita and Tonkara were getting a run of games, and were helping the side get some very encouraging results.

Around this time of the season IIRC, maybe a smidge before now (?), he seemed to abandon all that had gone before, and dispensed with the whole set-up, players like Lewis and Jones were dropped, the tempo and direction of play was changed and overall, he stopped with his previous instructions and switched to a style that was totally different to what had gone before.

 

And now to LJ...

 

Looks to me like exactly the same thing is happening here.

I was at Stevenage, and had seen a few of the pre-season games. I really liked the way we set up - Oxley rarely kicked from hand or from the deck, instead he threw out to either Tarkowski or Mellor; both of who were / are very comfortable with the ball at their feet. It was switched into midfield quickly; and we got it out wide as much as we could do. Dayton & Montano stayed wide; the old "chalk on boots" line, and we played at such a high tempo. We had a midfield 2 with one advanced; one slightly deeper and played with 2 genuine strikers; paying alongside each other; not with one withdrawn 'in the hole' - a genuine front 2 pairing.

We continued like that for a good while, and plenty of us on here were massively encouraged with the style of play; and potential of the side.

 

Fast-forward to last night; and the side is completely different; both from a player and from a tactical point of view.

 

No more playing out from the back; Oxley kicks long at all times; and the 2 cloggers that now play CB's for us are incapable of passing out from the back as had happened. Neither full-back overlaps. The wide players are narrow; especially Philliskirk on the right who was playing that inside he was essentially a 3rd central midfielder; the front 2 weren't playing as a pair and in the 1st half; the 2 central midfielders were both playing deep.

 

Huge changes.

 

I'm not sure what's gone here with LJ. Obviously football is a results driven 'industry' and whilst we were dominating possession in games and playing some nice tidy football; we weren't getting the results.

Maybe he's changed his mind on how to play in this division with that in mind?

 

My worry is, I don' think it is actually the way to go, and player for player, bar Harkins and possibly Worrall, we are weaker than we were.

 

Strange times...

Edited February 26, 2014 by slystallone

[pukka]

When you lose games, you lose confidence. 2 or 3 times I saw LJ become frustrated in players not passing it. The problem is pressure and a lack of confidence makes players tense and do what they wouldn't. The manager does the same.

[Guest Scratch2000uk]

It's all well and good doing a barcelona in your own half, Been thinking exactly the same, Back four, far too negative, which in turn keeps the midefielders too deep, If that's the case, as i believe. I would have thought it would be difficult for the opposistion to break us down and score. True, we don't leak bucket loads,The problem is, bagging some ourselves. It seems no matter which strikers we get, they seem to struggle, I doubt it's all down to their lack of ability.

[ChaddySmoker]

That was a pretty average side that LJ put out last night and the stylish players have gone, Sidney, Lanzoni Tarky etc and the 2 players that Sly mentioned Harkins and Worrall are not even our players so it certainly seems that we cannot wait for the season to end. My only hope is that LJ goes back to basics pre season and brings in quality players with a bit of class who are comfortable on the ball, like we seemed to start this season with. In the meanwhile roll on the cricket season!

[Lee Sinnott]

Dickov's team had a much better style of play at the beginning of the season and were up towards the playoffs until Saints and Posh dicked us in succession and PD reverted to the style we became accustomed to.

 

Even earlier on in the season, were we playing that well? The games I saw were pretty :censored:e and we'd play well for a 20 minute spell and then go back to being the :censored:e that we're used to...

[Stevie_J]

I was pretty pissed off last night. That was just not good enough, just not an acceptable team performance; especially first half. Trying to pick the bones out of it today, I can't help but draw some worrying comparisons to what happened during Paul Dickov's time as manager.

 

It looks to me like LJ has, in his 1st full season, completely changed his ideas on team shape, tactics and overall ethos of play. The side last night bares minimal resemblance to one that played against Stevenage 1st game of the season.

 

The same thing happened with Dickov.

 

Dickov started off playing with 2 wide players who weren't the conventional winger-type, but who did a cracking job for the side, playing to a strict formation and shape. He had a big man, little man up front combo. The tempo of play was fast, the pressing all over the pitch was incessant and we looked to get the ball down and play whenever possible. It had the desired effect and results were very promising. Player like Jones, Lewis A, Bemba-Lita and Tonkara were getting a run of games, and were helping the side get some very encouraging results.

Around this time of the season IIRC, maybe a smidge before now (?), he seemed to abandon all that had gone before, and dispensed with the whole set-up, players like Lewis and Jones were dropped, the tempo and direction of play was changed and overall, he stopped with his previous instructions and switched to a style that was totally different to what had gone before.

 

And now to LJ...

 

Looks to me like exactly the same thing is happening here.

I was at Stevenage, and had seen a few of the pre-season games. I really liked the way we set up - Oxley rarely kicked from hand or from the deck, instead he threw out to either Tarkowski or Mellor; both of who were / are very comfortable with the ball at their feet. It was switched into midfield quickly; and we got it out wide as much as we could do. Dayton & Montano stayed wide; the old "chalk on boots" line, and we played at such a high tempo. We had a midfield 2 with one advanced; one slightly deeper and played with 2 genuine strikers; paying alongside each other; not with one withdrawn 'in the hole' - a genuine front 2 pairing.

We continued like that for a good while, and plenty of us on here were massively encouraged with the style of play; and potential of the side.

 

Fast-forward to last night; and the side is completely different; both from a player and from a tactical point of view.

 

No more playing out from the back; Oxley kicks long at all times; and the 2 cloggers that now play CB's for us are incapable of passing out from the back as had happened. Neither full-back overlaps. The wide players are narrow; especially Philliskirk on the right who was playing that inside he was essentially a 3rd central midfielder; the front 2 weren't playing as a pair and in the 1st half; the 2 central midfielders were both playing deep.

 

Huge changes.

 

I'm not sure what's gone here with LJ. Obviously football is a results driven 'industry' and whilst we were dominating possession in games and playing some nice tidy football; we weren't getting the results.

Maybe he's changed his mind on how to play in this division with that in mind?

 

My worry is, I don' think it is actually the way to go, and player for player, bar Harkins and possibly Worrall, we are weaker than we were.

 

Strange times...

I've been saying it for ages - Johnson is very, very Dickov-esque.

[BP1960]

The manager can't have envisaged at the start of the season losing some of his 'long term' players such as Montano, Schmelz, Rooney and Tarkowski, on top of that Dayton hasn't performed as he would have expected and McDonald has missed a lot of matches through injuries - so that's 6 out of what he thought were part of his best eleven, his building of a team is in shatters and I feel for him in that respect.

However, as I have been saying from early in the season the two holding midfielders system (even though both are decent players) is not going to produce many goals - particularly at home.

To make matters worse Philliskirk is not a proper wide man, so there's few options open to the midfielders when they do get the ball, usually they pass to the full backs who don't go forward, who pass it back to them again, eventually they are pressed and its hoofed up to an isolated striker, who can't hold the ball anyway.

In my opinion one of the two holding midfielders has to be left out to enable a better supply to the wide men and strikers, the present method of play just isn't producing enough goals.

One holding midfielder (Smith or Wesolowski), Harkins as an attacking midfielder, two genuine wingers and two strikers should produce more goals at Boundary Park.

As Sly says the full backs are also a major problem as they are reluctant to go forward, this has to change too.

The down side some may say is more goals will be conceded, but it's also said the best form of defence is attack.

Edited February 26, 2014 by BP1960

[Stevie_J]

The manager can't have envisaged at the start of the season losing some of his 'long term' players such as Montano, Schmelz, Rooney and Tarkowski, on top of that Dayton hasn't performed as he would have expected and McDonald has missed a lot of matches through injuries - so that's 6 out of what he thought were part of his best eleven, his building of a team is in shatters and I feel for him in that respect.

I think you're really stretching the definition of the word "losing" there.

[BP1960]

I think you're really stretching the definition of the word "losing" there.

 

I know what you mean, but they were part of the managers foundations for success.

Edited February 26, 2014 by BP1960

[slystallone]

It's a very valid point re: the players who have gone.

 

I was very happy at the start of the season with the signings made; and especially the deals that the players were being signed up on.

 

2 year deals for the most part; or certainly with the option of that 2nd year being in the clubs favour.

 

Rooney

Schmeltz

Montano

Tarkowski

Baxter

 

All of the above were on deals in the clubs favour and were, for us, on decent length deals.

All now gone.

 

I think i'm right in the only ones to still be in the side and on deals that run into next season are Korey Smith, JCH and Dayton?

 

Wes & Grounds are 2 senior players who's deals are up at the end of the season; and youngsters like Winchester, Mellor and Millar are also up. Philliskirk i think has an option to extend; but that would be by no means a 'done deal' from past experiences.

 

The building a squad for the long(ish) term packed full of players who are tied into decent deals in the clubs favour has disappeared. Picking the bones out of this current side; full of players on short term deals (Lockwood, Wilson, Dunfield) and loanees (Harkins, Worrall, Oxley, Stead & the lesser spotted Kissock) - there really isnt much continuity for running into next season at all.

 

And once again, it looks like another pre-season where the onus is on the revolving door and yet again a start from scratch side needs to be built up.

I didnt think it would be like that at the start of the season; I really didnt - and i dont think LJ would have done either.

Edited February 26, 2014 by slystallone

[oafc21]

I was pretty pissed off last night. That was just not good enough, just not an acceptable team performance; especially first half. Trying to pick the bones out of it today, I can't help but draw some worrying comparisons to what happened during Paul Dickov's time as manager.

 

It looks to me like LJ has, in his 1st full season, completely changed his ideas on team shape, tactics and overall ethos of play. The side last night bares minimal resemblance to one that played against Stevenage 1st game of the season.

 

The same thing happened with Dickov.

 

Dickov started off playing with 2 wide players who weren't the conventional winger-type, but who did a cracking job for the side, playing to a strict formation and shape. He had a big man, little man up front combo. The tempo of play was fast, the pressing all over the pitch was incessant and we looked to get the ball down and play whenever possible. It had the desired effect and results were very promising. Player like Jones, Lewis A, Bemba-Lita and Tonkara were getting a run of games, and were helping the side get some very encouraging results.

Around this time of the season IIRC, maybe a smidge before now (?), he seemed to abandon all that had gone before, and dispensed with the whole set-up, players like Lewis and Jones were dropped, the tempo and direction of play was changed and overall, he stopped with his previous instructions and switched to a style that was totally different to what had gone before.

 

And now to LJ...

 

Looks to me like exactly the same thing is happening here.

I was at Stevenage, and had seen a few of the pre-season games. I really liked the way we set up - Oxley rarely kicked from hand or from the deck, instead he threw out to either Tarkowski or Mellor; both of who were / are very comfortable with the ball at their feet. It was switched into midfield quickly; and we got it out wide as much as we could do. Dayton & Montano stayed wide; the old "chalk on boots" line, and we played at such a high tempo. We had a midfield 2 with one advanced; one slightly deeper and played with 2 genuine strikers; paying alongside each other; not with one withdrawn 'in the hole' - a genuine front 2 pairing.

We continued like that for a good while, and plenty of us on here were massively encouraged with the style of play; and potential of the side.

 

Fast-forward to last night; and the side is completely different; both from a player and from a tactical point of view.

 

No more playing out from the back; Oxley kicks long at all times; and the 2 cloggers that now play CB's for us are incapable of passing out from the back as had happened. Neither full-back overlaps. The wide players are narrow; especially Philliskirk on the right who was playing that inside he was essentially a 3rd central midfielder; the front 2 weren't playing as a pair and in the 1st half; the 2 central midfielders were both playing deep.

 

Huge changes.

 

I'm not sure what's gone here with LJ. Obviously football is a results driven 'industry' and whilst we were dominating possession in games and playing some nice tidy football; we weren't getting the results.

Maybe he's changed his mind on how to play in this division with that in mind?

 

My worry is, I don' think it is actually the way to go, and player for player, bar Harkins and possibly Worrall, we are weaker than we were.

 

Strange times...

well put sly,spot on

[ChaddySmoker]

The manager can't have envisaged at the start of the season losing some of his 'long term' players such as Montano, Schmelz, Rooney and Tarkowski, on top of that Dayton hasn't performed as he would have expected and McDonald has missed a lot of matches through injuries - so that's 6 out of what he thought were part of his best eleven, his building of a team is in shatters and I feel for him in that respect.

However, as I have been saying from early in the season the two holding midfielders system (even though both are decent players) is not going to produce many goals - particularly at home.

To make matters worse Philliskirk is not a proper wide man, so there's few options open to the midfielders when they do get the ball, usually they pass to the full backs who don't go forward, who pass it back to them again, eventually they are pressed and its hoofed up to an isolated striker, who can't hold the ball anyway.

In my opinion one of the two holding midfielders has to be left out to enable a better supply to the wide men and strikers, the present method of play just isn't producing enough goals.

OK BP You seem to repeat a bit of what I said regarding those players, lost, sacked or sold but to me we cannot choose to play a 2 man midfield of Smith and Harkins just as we have only tiddled along using the defensive midfield 2 of Smith and Wes. I do agree though that our full backs are a problem, a serious problem at the moment. I think also that a lot us now feel that Grounds is better at centre back than fullback and we can all see that at times Philly draws the short straw and his form then suffers.

Why don't we try 3 at the back? Other teams do it and some do it quite successfully! That might, in my opinion, help us attack

One holding midfielder (Smith or Wesolowski), Harkins as an attacking midfielder, two genuine wingers and two strikers should produce more goals at Boundary Park.

As Sly says the full backs are also a major problem as they are reluctant to go forward, this has to change too.

The down side some may say is more goals will be conceded, but it's also said the best form of defence is attack.

[ChaddySmoker]

I seemed to make a cock up there of using the quote but my team now would be;

Oxley

Wilson Lockwood Grounds

Connor Korey Harkins Dayton or C Winchester instead of Harkins

Philly/Worrall or then Harkins

C Mac & JCH

 

NB Harkins must play by the way!

[whitey1980]

I think fans can stomach poor performances if there is evidence of a plan, progress, and hope for the future. When that is not present, one frustrating performance just morphs into the next.

 

At the start of the season the shape and style of the team was clear, but I would question the direction of the team at present.

 

At this level you are always going to lose players and our losses have hit us particularly hard. The issue is that as has been highlighted above, the players brought in have not only been weaker than those replaced, but have actually made it harder for our better players to prosper as our shape and balance within the team has gone!!

 

I really feel for LJ, as I don't think this is all at his door, and he has been forced to try and survive above and beyond his principles. We can only hope that he learns from the experience and returns stronger and more decisive for it.

 

That after all was Dickov's major failing - his complete inability to learn from and develop beyond the mistakes of the second half of his first season.

Edited February 26, 2014 by whitey1980

[whitey1980]

We could do far worse than revert back to a back four of (left to right) Mellor / Grounds / Kasunga / Winchester. At the very least that allows us to have 4 options who are comfortable receiving the ball from the GK and bring our midfielders into the game rather than bypass them!

[HarryBosch]

He should never have got rid of Baxter.

 

He'd have been on double figures by now and the gates would be 500+ higher.

 

That, and all of the above, said - I'm confident he'll learn from his mistakes given time.

[blueatheart]

He should never have got rid of Baxter.

He'd have been on double figures by now and the gates would be 500+ higher.

That, and all of the above, said - I'm confident he'll learn from his mistakes given time.

Baxter didn't fit anywhere, he never did.

 

We had the same issue with Harkins in his first game, then he was shoved out wide and he is a revelation.

[HarryBosch]

Baxter didn't fit anywhere, he never did.

He seemed to fit pretty well scoring those 15 goals on the back of no pre-season.

[blueatheart]

He seemed to fit pretty well scoring those 15 goals on the back of no pre-season.

I get it. I really do.

 

I liked the dinks, I enjoyed the set pieces but he upset the balance of the side. Just like Harkins did in his first game.

 

Striker? Attacking midfielder?

 

The manager had to compromise somewhere on the pitch to accommodate him.

 

I disagree that this season would have been vastly different had we kept Baxter and I would actually argue it would have been worse. I imagine that The Baxter deal allowed Philiskirk, Lanzoni and Kusunga to join the club.

[yarddog73]

what as the tarky deal allowed the club to do then ?

[opinions4u]

what as the tarky deal allowed the club to do then ?

Pay for part of a stand.

 

Plug the gap when only 2600 home fans turn up for a match.

 

Just a couple of thoughts ...

[rudemedic]

He should never have got rid of Baxter.

He'd have been on double figures by now and the gates would be 500+ higher.

That, and all of the above, said - I'm confident he'll learn from his mistakes given time.

Don't think he was given the choice, whilst we sold Baxter for less than his release clause stated, it could end up being more. All Sheff U (and other clubs interested) had to do was reach Baxter's release clause and we couldn't stop him leaving if he wanted to.

 

Baxter probably would be on double figures, as he only had to score 8 more anyway, and he'd have been first choice penalty taker presumably, but some of them were in the cups, so depends if you are counting them or not. (Plus the OWTB rules about penalties).

 

The same about seats could presumably be said about Rusnak and could be said about Harkins I presume too?

[opinions4u]

I prefer Harkins to Baxter.

 

There. Said it.

[blueatheart]

what as the tarky deal allowed the club to do then ?

I'll bite. In addition to opinions4u points above.

 

We've brought in Wilson and Dunfield on frees.

We will have paid a loan fee for JP Kissock.

We paid a transfer fee for Rhys Turner.

 

No doubt something would have happened had Tarky stayed, but I doubt we'd have signed Wilson (who I quite like) or Turner.

[GlossopLatic]

With regards to next season surely the likes of worall Harkins Wilson Lockwood and even I oxley could all realistically be Oldham players next season. Grounds and Wes are good league 1 players and could again be realistically be kept on here add in jch philiskirk Dayton and Korey. Connor brown and Charlie Mac could also be kept if we feel the need for continuity. Kusunga maybe an interesting one I'm sure we would happily keep him on would he want to stay?

 

So realistically the core of next seasons team could already be in place.