unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Alcohol doesn't enter your system immediately - it takes time for the body to process it. Quite feasible that she'd be more incapacitated an hour after she finished drinking than straight after her last sip of booze. But in the case it states that the consent to McDonald was given by getting in a taxi with him? So I find it hard to comprehend, either way I'd prefer him not to sign for Oldham, wouldn't kick up a fuss like thousands of people have should he get a club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Clearly I wasn't suggesting that simply goingg with McDonald in a taxi to a hotel was consent - but it suggests that they went there with the intention of having sex and probably provides reasonable doubt in any claim that McDonald raped her. I wasn't saying you were suggesting it, I just find it all inconsistent myself. Another question to ask yourself If you were having sex with a girl and then your 'mate' had sex with her after you finished that wasn't consensual would you not come out and say something? or at least not speak to him after the event took place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 According to the court transcripts, McDonald was in the room when Evans joined in. So any consent would be irrelevant at that point. https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans Mcdonald and Ched's cameraman might consider themselves lucky not to have been done as accomplices. It's hard not to feel that they were working a well known routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Mcdonald and Ched's cameraman might consider themselves lucky not to have been done as accomplices. It's hard not to feel that they were working a well known routine. That we will never know, I do understand why he was found guilty but i'm not convinced it was rape, just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritchierich Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 According to the court transcripts, McDonald was in the room when Evans joined in. So any consent would be irrelevant at that point. https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans Having read that I am amazed that he was found guilty.....i have absolutely no idea if he is guilty of rape or not but don't see how the jury could either. I also find it incredible that McDonald could be found innocent and Evans guilty, it's both or neither as far as I can see. What is clear though is that their behaviour was pretty disgusting and it's hard to have a huge amount of sympathy. Hopefully others will learn a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 According to the court transcripts, McDonald was in the room when Evans joined in. So any consent would be irrelevant at that point. https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans Having read that I am amazed that he was found guilty.....i have absolutely no idea if he is guilty of rape or not but don't see how the jury could either. I also find it incredible that McDonald could be found innocent and Evans guilty, it's both or neither as far as I can see. What is clear though is that their behaviour was pretty disgusting and it's hard to have a huge amount of sympathy. Hopefully others will learn a lesson. I fully agree with that summing up. I don't have much sympathy for Evans in the respect of at best he is a 'cheat' and that is at best. He was undoubtedly stupid and I don't really see how he could be convicted again off reading the link put on. I find it hard to see how one was found guilty and one isn't but hey it's done so hopefully others will learn a lesson as well as Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wozzer Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 After looking into the case quite extensively my opinion of him being innocent grows. The argument wasn't that she said 'no' it was that she was 'too drunk to say yes' Following getting in a taxi with Clayton McDonald she didn't have anything else to drink from when she got into the taxi to when the 'rape' took place and if she was already drunk then the CCTV footage that has been released you could argue otherwise. She borrowed heals off her friend so she could have been struggling to walk in the first place yet the footage released shows no sign of major stumbling or anything of the kind. If she wasn't able to 'say yes' to Evans due to being too drunk surely McDonald is the same? The girl also claims she is traumatised by the night and I know girls that have been raped that have been left traumatised and I have full sympathy with them and would help them try and get over such a thing, however in the case in question, she doesn't remember the night? How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? What she may be traumatised over is seeing what actually happened that night in the coming months after which is a totally different thing in the case. Evans leaving through a fire exit doesn't help but that doesn't necessarily admit guilt of rape, may just admit guilt of cheating on his girlfriend which maybe he regretted. The tweets the day after that stated about 'winning big' from the girl causes animosity to Evans supporters (something that I am not) and you can understand why they get slightly annoyed when all these allegations come about and the girl tidies up her social media page from the night in question? Looks quite poor in my opinion. Do I think he is innocent? Of rape maybe, of stupidity definitely Would I personally let him back into football? Yes, he has a right to be getting on with his life, in the public eye or not Would I want Oldham to sign him? Ideally not but wouldn't stop coming if we did Would I feel this way if the girl in question was a member of my family? I don't know, never been in that position but suspect I probably wouldn't Would I believe Evans if he was a member of my family? Probably yes, I'd like to think so Sadly this has caused a major stir, Evans had a way out when he was released from prison in that he admits guilt, apologises as much as he could and vow to try and put things right off the field as well as on. That was the easier way out if football is all that mattered to him. What I would pose to you is would you come out and apologise if you didn't believe you were guilty of a crime you had been convicted for? Would you admit guilt to get back into a job you love? I suspect probably not, I know I wouldn't I'm not for one minute saying Evans is innocent but some people just read and see the conviction for what it is which at the minute is 'guilty' and that's fair enough and I'm not for one minute slating the girl as I think she was stupid just like Evans and McDonald that night, I feel for her as she doesn't deserve the level of abuse she is getting and I would never say any personal abuse to the girl whatsoever but neither would I Evans. Just read into the case and then see what you believe. I find it hard to believe how one is found innocent and one guilty, that shows massive inconsistency in my eyes but that's my opinion I hope I haven't offended anybody with this opinion as all it is, is personal opinion. You think he may be innocent of rape but definitely innocent of stupidity? Given the eloquent nature of the rest of your post I'll assume you really don't mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 She's a bit special eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I find it hard to see how one was found guilty and one isn't but hey it's done so hopefully others will learn a lesson as well as Evans The answer has been given. Reasonable doubt. The jury might have thought anything from the other guy having had full consent through to seriously doubting him but not feeling totally sure, but they didn't feel able to convict. The reasons they had for this didn't apply to Evans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 After looking into the case quite extensively my opinion of him being innocent grows. The argument wasn't that she said 'no' it was that she was 'too drunk to say yes' Following getting in a taxi with Clayton McDonald she didn't have anything else to drink from when she got into the taxi to when the 'rape' took place and if she was already drunk then the CCTV footage that has been released you could argue otherwise. She borrowed heals off her friend so she could have been struggling to walk in the first place yet the footage released shows no sign of major stumbling or anything of the kind. If she wasn't able to 'say yes' to Evans due to being too drunk surely McDonald is the same? The girl also claims she is traumatised by the night and I know girls that have been raped that have been left traumatised and I have full sympathy with them and would help them try and get over such a thing, however in the case in question, she doesn't remember the night? How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? What she may be traumatised over is seeing what actually happened that night in the coming months after which is a totally different thing in the case. Evans leaving through a fire exit doesn't help but that doesn't necessarily admit guilt of rape, may just admit guilt of cheating on his girlfriend which maybe he regretted. The tweets the day after that stated about 'winning big' from the girl causes animosity to Evans supporters (something that I am not) and you can understand why they get slightly annoyed when all these allegations come about and the girl tidies up her social media page from the night in question? Looks quite poor in my opinion. Do I think he is innocent? Of rape maybe, of stupidity definitely Would I personally let him back into football? Yes, he has a right to be getting on with his life, in the public eye or not Would I want Oldham to sign him? Ideally not but wouldn't stop coming if we did Would I feel this way if the girl in question was a member of my family? I don't know, never been in that position but suspect I probably wouldn't Would I believe Evans if he was a member of my family? Probably yes, I'd like to think so Sadly this has caused a major stir, Evans had a way out when he was released from prison in that he admits guilt, apologises as much as he could and vow to try and put things right off the field as well as on. That was the easier way out if football is all that mattered to him. What I would pose to you is would you come out and apologise if you didn't believe you were guilty of a crime you had been convicted for? Would you admit guilt to get back into a job you love? I suspect probably not, I know I wouldn't I'm not for one minute saying Evans is innocent but some people just read and see the conviction for what it is which at the minute is 'guilty' and that's fair enough and I'm not for one minute slating the girl as I think she was stupid just like Evans and McDonald that night, I feel for her as she doesn't deserve the level of abuse she is getting and I would never say any personal abuse to the girl whatsoever but neither would I Evans. Just read into the case and then see what you believe. I find it hard to believe how one is found innocent and one guilty, that shows massive inconsistency in my eyes but that's my opinion I hope I haven't offended anybody with this opinion as all it is, is personal opinion. You should get a job defending vicitms of rhoypnol. They don't remeber and are yet strangely traumatised. Can't think why. Suspicious that. It's quite simple. She didn't consent. Not saying no doesn't mean yes. I repeat, she's been treat like a toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 As per why one was guilty and one was not, the transscript states: 'Given that direction, it was open to the jury to convict both defendants, to acquit both defendants, or to convict one and not the other defendant. That was the point of a joint trial in which separate verdicts were to be returned. It was open to the jury to consider that even if the complainant did not, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse with either of the two men, that in the light of his part in what happened -- the meeting in the street and so on -- McDonald may reasonably have believed that the complainant had consented to sexual activity with him, and at the same time concluded that the applicant knew perfectly well that she had not consented to sexual activity with him (the applicant). The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her. Those were matters entirely open to the jury; there was no inconsistency.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIZZO83 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I know there is another thread on Ched Evans but I was wondering how many OWTB members would actually sign him, proved goalscorer at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 You should get a job defending vicitms of rhoypnol. They don't remeber and are yet strangely traumatised. Can't think why. Suspicious that. It's quite simple. She didn't consent. Not saying no doesn't mean yes. I repeat, she's been treat like a toilet. I don't understand how you can be traumatised by an event you don't remember happening. For another example you couldn't be traumatised with having your head kicked in if you only remember them coming up to you? You can be traumatised by what it then leaves, for example a broken nose, broken jaw etc but that is the consequence of the event not the event itself, should that make any more sense. Like I said I don't doubt his stupidity and don't doubt it was reckless but I, myself am not convinced it was rape off the story I have read from the link given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The answer has been given. Reasonable doubt. The jury might have thought anything from the other guy having had full consent through to seriously doubting him but not feeling totally sure, but they didn't feel able to convict. The reasons they had for this didn't apply to Evans. Completely agree, can't question that. As I said I understand why and how he was found guilty and there are lessons to be learned from this case for lads and men who go out on a night out and pick up a girl is three sheets to the wind and still go on to sleep with them. I understand why he was found guilty as it doesn't look very good but I, myself am not convinced off the information I have seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 You think he may be innocent of rape but definitely innocent of stupidity? Given the eloquent nature of the rest of your post I'll assume you really don't mean that. Definitely guilty of stupidity not convinced in my mind if it is rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I don't understand how you can be traumatised by an event you don't remember happening. For another example you couldn't be traumatised with having your head kicked in if you only remember them coming up to you? You can be traumatised by what it then leaves, for example a broken nose, broken jaw etc but that is the consequence of the event not the event itself, should that make any more sense. Like I said I don't doubt his stupidity and don't doubt it was reckless but I, myself am not convinced it was rape off the story I have read from the link given The last time you were really pissed, I climbed through your bedroom window and fingered your arsehole. I lubed you up nicely, no damage. Fancy watching the tape my brother made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritchierich Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 As per why one was guilty and one was not, the transscript states: 'Given that direction, it was open to the jury to convict both defendants, to acquit both defendants, or to convict one and not the other defendant. That was the point of a joint trial in which separate verdicts were to be returned. It was open to the jury to consider that even if the complainant did not, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse with either of the two men, that in the light of his part in what happened -- the meeting in the street and so on -- McDonald may reasonably have believed that the complainant had consented to sexual activity with him, and at the same time concluded that the applicant knew perfectly well that she had not consented to sexual activity with him (the applicant). The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her. Those were matters entirely open to the jury; there was no inconsistency.' I know it says all that but it doesn't really make sense to me.....if Evans is indeed guilty of rape then McDonald is surely guilty of something pretty serious if he sat there and watched while a girl was raped....it presumably would need a separate charge and trial but the way it was presented and tried just seems very, very odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The last time you were really pissed, I climbed through your bedroom window and fingered your arsehole. I lubed you up nicely, no damage. Fancy watching the tape my brother made? That was out of order, I haven't doubted the whole case is absolutely disgusting which it is but I'm saying I, off the information I've seen wouldn't have been able to find him guilty, then again the jury have, he's been convicted so he is until he proves innocence which he may never do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 That was out of order, I haven't doubted the whole case is absolutely disgusting which it is but I'm saying I, off the information I've seen wouldn't have been able to find him guilty, then again the jury have, he's been convicted so he is until he proves innocence which he may never do. It's all hyperbole because you haven't seen exactly the same information that the jury have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 That was out of order, I haven't doubted the whole case is absolutely disgusting which it is but I'm saying I, off the information I've seen wouldn't have been able to find him guilty, then again the jury have, he's been convicted so he is until he proves innocence which he may never do. We know, you've told us twenty times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I know there is another thread on Ched Evans but I was wondering how many OWTB members would actually sign him, proved goalscorer at this level. Not a chance. I wouldn't attend any Latics game or put a penny into the club as long as there was a convicted rapist in the team. My kids are starting to get to an age where they're taking an interest in football; no way am I taking them to cheer on someone like Evans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc-latics Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I know there is another thread on Ched Evans but I was wondering how many OWTB members would actually sign him, proved goalscorer at this level. As a footballer, he'd be a great signing. BUT... he's not just a footballer anymore. Sheffield United have lost sponsors, patrons, and a lot of respect, and they haven't even signed him back. Can't see him signing for any English club after that, regardless of his appeal. (Although Wigan don't seem to take morals into account anymore..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 . A bit minimalist for you, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I know it says all that but it doesn't really make sense to me.....if Evans is indeed guilty of rape then McDonald is surely guilty of something pretty serious if he sat there and watched while a girl was raped....it presumably would need a separate charge and trial but the way it was presented and tried just seems very, very odd. Perhaps there should or could have been a seperate charge, though for whatever reason the prosecution didn't alledge that Mcdonald had assisted in the rape of the girl, so the option could not be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshawlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I know it says all that but it doesn't really make sense to me.....if Evans is indeed guilty of rape then McDonald is surely guilty of something pretty serious if he sat there and watched while a girl was raped....it presumably would need a separate charge and trial but the way it was presented and tried just seems very, very odd. Whilst this argument is morally correct, in law it is an offence to assist in the commision of a crime but not to merely witness one whatever the circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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