oafc0000 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I still think the only discussion here is if you believe that someone should be allowed to return to employment after serving their punishment? (and logically, most people will go back to doing what they love or are trained to do) I genuinely do not see why other factors are introduced into the argument and the Irish PFA statement was completely ridiculous for this very reason. it surely has to be in everyone's interests that all convicted criminals return to society if and when appropriate and live peacefully and contribute positively and financially....to deny someone the opportunity to do that in a full and free manner is fundamentally wrong in my view, and likely to lead to further crimes. ...and just to be clear, no softy liberal sentiment here, i believe we should have whole life sentences use fixed terms far more than we do but once we deem someone has served their time and is no longer a threat to society then surely that is that. But that is not that and never has been... For a start a teacher, doctor, nurse etc couldn't expect to go back to what they are trained to do after raping someone... Would you want someone doing your company books who had a conviction for fraud ? Would you want someone coming reading your meter who had a conviction for assault ? The whole story is being spun into this idea that if he was a "normal" person he would just walk back into a job when the reality is totally different. The idea a convicted rapist can just walk back into such a high profile public position as a football is mind boggling laughable. He won't be able to do any community work and will damage the image of the club. The biggest thing a club has to trade off is their image. Sponsorship is vital to any club and a bad image is toxic. I think Sheff United are barmy!!! It so simple to say he has done his time... but the reality is way more complex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 But that is not that and never has been... For a start a teacher, doctor, nurse etc couldn't expect to go back to what they are trained to do after raping someone... Would you want someone doing your company books who had a conviction for fraud ? Would you want someone coming reading your meter who had a conviction for assault ? The whole story is being spun into this idea that if he was a "normal" person he would just walk back into a job when the reality is totally different. The idea a convicted rapist can just walk back into such a high profile public position as a football is mind boggling laughable. He won't be able to do any community work and will damage the image of the club. The biggest thing a club has to trade off is their image. Sponsorship is vital to any club and a bad image is toxic. I think Sheff United are barmy!!! It so simple to say he has done his time... but the reality is way more complex... No it's not. First things first, I don't think anyone can dispute the severity of the crime - and I'm not ranking crimes and sentences. I agree with you that he shouldn't have gone back to Bramhall Lane; Sheffield United have jumped in too early in my opinion however, there is no reason why he cannot return to football after a period of rehabilitation and community work. He clearly needs a decent agent - someone with cleaner image (if there is such a thing) - he has to win back the public, and win big. At the very least take maybe take a role in football somewhere down the trough, away from the 24hr media surveillance of him. The guy is a :censored:, but there are ways for him to pay back and get back - if he uses his loaf. I can't understand the complexity of the situation. I believe if you're convicted of fraud, you are probably never going to work legitimately in the financial sector again, let alone be an accountant - Evans is a footballer, he's in a profession which does not have a governing body that requires registers of safe and proper practices, so I'm sure you know that's the reason why vocations which require certification and stringent affiliation are managed very differently to football. Also, the non-sequitur of your meter-reader, of that was the case there would be a whole raft of people unable to get in work - the repercussions of which would probably not end with a massive tax burden for us all. http://www.owtb.co.uk/index.php/topic/45994-ched-evans/?p=742465 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 The point about fraud is right. However it's fair to say you aren't getting a job where the customers know who you are, for the simple reason that they won't like it. Nobody is saying he can't work or that a special legal case, but it would be a very wrong decision to let him carry on as was. He's young and fit, he can get work if he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Ravel Morrison cleared - but still a further trial. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/former-united-star-ravel-morrison-8082218 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz_Oafc Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Sheffield United retract decision to let Evans train with the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Sheffield United retract decision to let Evans train with the club. too little too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 too little too late Not really, I think there is now an element of it being legally acceptable for them to do so, whereas previously that wasn't guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The club said reaction to their initial decision "has been at an intensity that could not have been anticipated". ...really.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Wonder if Gordon Brown is doing their PR now, massive U turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Not really, I think there is now an element of it being legally acceptable for them to do so, whereas previously that wasn't guaranteed.Bollocks. They had to let someone they sacked back into the workplace to help him get his old job back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Bollocks. They had to let someone they sacked back into the workplace to help him get his old job back?They were asked by the FA to do so, they couldn't say no without running the risk of being sued due to right not to be restricted from trade. Now they can demonstrate it has cost them money, therefore the risk of being sued is much, much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 They were asked by the FA to do so, they couldn't say no without running the risk of being sued due to right not to be restricted from trade. Now they can demonstrate it has cost them money, therefore the risk of being sued is much, much less.I thought they were asked by the PFA "Hello trade union. I've just come out of jail having got caught raping someone because my brother filmed me doing it." Yes. Sheffield United were at terrible risk of legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celliott83 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Is it ironic that someone said yes to Evans then says no...... All we need now for this circus is for Evans to turn up at training regardless of what he's been told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyldelatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Now no English or indeed British club will touch him with a bargepole. The only chance of rebuilding his career is going abroad, though his early release licence prevents him from travelling abroad for a year. Edited November 21, 2014 by Fyldelatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 They were asked by the FA to do so, they couldn't say no without running the risk of being sued due to right not to be restricted from trade. Now they can demonstrate it has cost them money, therefore the risk of being sued is much, much less. How could they be sued in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Is it ironic that someone said yes to Evans then says no...... All we need now for this circus is for Evans to turn up at training regardless of what he's been told That's disgusting... and hilarious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ritchierich Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 But that is not that and never has been... For a start a teacher, doctor, nurse etc couldn't expect to go back to what they are trained to do after raping someone... Would you want someone doing your company books who had a conviction for fraud ? Would you want someone coming reading your meter who had a conviction for assault ? The whole story is being spun into this idea that if he was a "normal" person he would just walk back into a job when the reality is totally different. The idea a convicted rapist can just walk back into such a high profile public position as a football is mind boggling laughable. He won't be able to do any community work and will damage the image of the club. The biggest thing a club has to trade off is their image. Sponsorship is vital to any club and a bad image is toxic. I think Sheff United are barmy!!! It so simple to say he has done his time... but the reality is way more complex... I disagree with the first part of your response, I knew someone would raise that argument! Clearly it depends and of-course a teacher could not teach again after abusing kids or your fraud example but this is not that scenario. Your second point is entirely fair, Sheffield Utd are indeed risking their image but surely that is a matter for them. The real stupidity on their part is that they have not made a clear statement on why they were letting him train and possibly re-join the club. They have stayed almost silent which is bizarre. I maintain that in most cases convicted criminals should be able to return to the workplace after serving their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 They were asked by the FA to do so, they couldn't say no without running the risk of being sued due to right not to be restricted from trade. Now they can demonstrate it has cost them money, therefore the risk of being sued is much, much less. There was no risk of them being sued whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 After looking into the case quite extensively my opinion of him being innocent grows. The argument wasn't that she said 'no' it was that she was 'too drunk to say yes' Following getting in a taxi with Clayton McDonald she didn't have anything else to drink from when she got into the taxi to when the 'rape' took place and if she was already drunk then the CCTV footage that has been released you could argue otherwise. She borrowed heals off her friend so she could have been struggling to walk in the first place yet the footage released shows no sign of major stumbling or anything of the kind. If she wasn't able to 'say yes' to Evans due to being too drunk surely McDonald is the same? The girl also claims she is traumatised by the night and I know girls that have been raped that have been left traumatised and I have full sympathy with them and would help them try and get over such a thing, however in the case in question, she doesn't remember the night? How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? What she may be traumatised over is seeing what actually happened that night in the coming months after which is a totally different thing in the case. Evans leaving through a fire exit doesn't help but that doesn't necessarily admit guilt of rape, may just admit guilt of cheating on his girlfriend which maybe he regretted. The tweets the day after that stated about 'winning big' from the girl causes animosity to Evans supporters (something that I am not) and you can understand why they get slightly annoyed when all these allegations come about and the girl tidies up her social media page from the night in question? Looks quite poor in my opinion. Do I think he is innocent? Of rape maybe, of stupidity definitely Would I personally let him back into football? Yes, he has a right to be getting on with his life, in the public eye or not Would I want Oldham to sign him? Ideally not but wouldn't stop coming if we did Would I feel this way if the girl in question was a member of my family? I don't know, never been in that position but suspect I probably wouldn't Would I believe Evans if he was a member of my family? Probably yes, I'd like to think so Sadly this has caused a major stir, Evans had a way out when he was released from prison in that he admits guilt, apologises as much as he could and vow to try and put things right off the field as well as on. That was the easier way out if football is all that mattered to him. What I would pose to you is would you come out and apologise if you didn't believe you were guilty of a crime you had been convicted for? Would you admit guilt to get back into a job you love? I suspect probably not, I know I wouldn't I'm not for one minute saying Evans is innocent but some people just read and see the conviction for what it is which at the minute is 'guilty' and that's fair enough and I'm not for one minute slating the girl as I think she was stupid just like Evans and McDonald that night, I feel for her as she doesn't deserve the level of abuse she is getting and I would never say any personal abuse to the girl whatsoever but neither would I Evans. Just read into the case and then see what you believe. I find it hard to believe how one is found innocent and one guilty, that shows massive inconsistency in my eyes but that's my opinion I hope I haven't offended anybody with this opinion as all it is, is personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 After looking into the case quite extensively my opinion of him being innocent grows. The argument wasn't that she said 'no' it was that she was 'too drunk to say yes' Following getting in a taxi with Clayton McDonald she didn't have anything else to drink from when she got into the taxi to when the 'rape' took place and if she was already drunk then the CCTV footage that has been released you could argue otherwise. She borrowed heals off her friend so she could have been struggling to walk in the first place yet the footage released shows no sign of major stumbling or anything of the kind. If she wasn't able to 'say yes' to Evans due to being too drunk surely McDonald is the same? The girl also claims she is traumatised by the night and I know girls that have been raped that have been left traumatised and I have full sympathy with them and would help them try and get over such a thing, however in the case in question, she doesn't remember the night? How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? What she may be traumatised over is seeing what actually happened that night in the coming months after which is a totally different thing in the case. Evans leaving through a fire exit doesn't help but that doesn't necessarily admit guilt of rape, may just admit guilt of cheating on his girlfriend which maybe he regretted. The tweets the day after that stated about 'winning big' from the girl causes animosity to Evans supporters (something that I am not) and you can understand why they get slightly annoyed when all these allegations come about and the girl tidies up her social media page from the night in question? Looks quite poor in my opinion. Do I think he is innocent? Of rape maybe, of stupidity definitely Would I personally let him back into football? Yes, he has a right to be getting on with his life, in the public eye or not Would I want Oldham to sign him? Ideally not but wouldn't stop coming if we did Would I feel this way if the girl in question was a member of my family? I don't know, never been in that position but suspect I probably wouldn't Would I believe Evans if he was a member of my family? Probably yes, I'd like to think so Sadly this has caused a major stir, Evans had a way out when he was released from prison in that he admits guilt, apologises as much as he could and vow to try and put things right off the field as well as on. That was the easier way out if football is all that mattered to him. What I would pose to you is would you come out and apologise if you didn't believe you were guilty of a crime you had been convicted for? Would you admit guilt to get back into a job you love? I suspect probably not, I know I wouldn't I'm not for one minute saying Evans is innocent but some people just read and see the conviction for what it is which at the minute is 'guilty' and that's fair enough and I'm not for one minute slating the girl as I think she was stupid just like Evans and McDonald that night, I feel for her as she doesn't deserve the level of abuse she is getting and I would never say any personal abuse to the girl whatsoever but neither would I Evans. Just read into the case and then see what you believe. I find it hard to believe how one is found innocent and one guilty, that shows massive inconsistency in my eyes but that's my opinion I hope I haven't offended anybody with this opinion as all it is, is personal opinion. How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? This line of thinking seems to be based on the fact she got herself drunk and I don't think many would be saying it if Evans had dropped some rohypnol in her drink and then raped her. In terms of the trauma, it's not really any different though. She went back to the hotel room with McDonald, she didn't go with Evans - he just turned up for sex, without any idea (or interest) in whether she was interested in having sex with him. So, they're not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsworthlatic Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 How can you be traumatised by what you don't remember? This line of thinking seems to be based on the fact she got herself drunk and I don't think many would be saying it if Evans had dropped some rohypnol in her drink and then raped her. In terms of the trauma, it's not really any different though. She went back to the hotel room with McDonald, she didn't go with Evans - he just turned up for sex, without any idea (or interest) in whether she was interested in having sex with him. So, they're not the same. But she claimed she didn't tell people she had been raped, her friends told her she might have been? That's what I mean when I said she couldn't have been traumatised by the actual event, however I sympathise that she could have been traumatised with what was to follow i.e. personal abuse. The argument like I said wasn't that she didn't consent, it was she was too drunk to give consent so surely the same applies to McDonald as she was as drunk if not more when she had sex with McDonald. If consent is getting in a taxi with somebody then I'm no fan of that law. If the argument is that she wasn't in a fit state to consent with Evans then surely the same applies for McDonald? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 But she claimed she didn't tell people she had been raped, her friends told her she might have been? That's what I mean when I said she couldn't have been traumatised by the actual event, however I sympathise that she could have been traumatised with what was to follow i.e. personal abuse. The argument like I said wasn't that she didn't consent, it was she was too drunk to give consent so surely the same applies to McDonald as she was as drunk if not more when she had sex with McDonald. If consent is getting in a taxi with somebody then I'm no fan of that law. If the argument is that she wasn't in a fit state to consent with Evans then surely the same applies for McDonald? Clearly I wasn't suggesting that simply goingg with McDonald in a taxi to a hotel was consent - but it suggests that they went there with the intention of having sex and probably provides reasonable doubt in any claim that McDonald raped her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The argument like I said wasn't that she didn't consent, it was she was too drunk to give consent so surely the same applies to McDonald as she was as drunk if not more when she had sex with McDonald. Alcohol doesn't enter your system immediately - it takes time for the body to process it. Quite feasible that she'd be more incapacitated an hour after she finished drinking than straight after her last sip of booze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Bored of hearing about this guy now, if he wins his appeal then fine, the circumstances will have changed, until that happens disappear please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 Lions Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 According to the court transcripts, McDonald was in the room when Evans joined in. So any consent would be irrelevant at that point. https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts