palmer1 Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 We lose one game and people jump on the Winchester isn't fit enough brigade. At least he looked for the ball. How about philliskirk hiding? Fulton hiding? Poleon and his lack of football brain and ability? James Wilson hoofing? Mills inability to find a blue shirt? Kelly not providing anything attacking wise? Philiskirk saw more ball on both wings and wanted more than Winchester did in the last 15. Kelly tried but wasnt effective, he was rushing passes but had the ball on the edge of the box looming for options. Poleon doesn't have a football nbrain but should only ever play in a 2 up front Wilson hoofs it long out of play every week as does either keeper, Jones, The right back whoever it may be and Kelly. It's :censored:! Mills did OK yesterday for me but did mis place a few passes. Didn't they all? Nobody is Blaming Winchester for the loss but his fitness and application has been talked about for over 12 months. If people didn't see yesterday that it is an issue then they are not watching or clearly ignoring it. Winchester was not to blame for yesterday. All 11 players were :censored: & a management team who seem only able to pick one formation until is doesn't work (every week) so they throw on another striker....poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hands on Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Good assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshgaz Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Philiskirk saw more ball on both wings and wanted more than Winchester did in the last 15. Kelly tried but wasnt effective, he was rushing passes but had the ball on the edge of the box looming for options. Poleon doesn't have a football nbrain but should only ever play in a 2 up front Wilson hoofs it long out of play every week as does either keeper, Jones, The right back whoever it may be and Kelly. It's :censored:! Mills did OK yesterday for me but did mis place a few passes. Didn't they all? Nobody is Blaming Winchester for the loss but his fitness and application has been talked about for over 12 months. If people didn't see yesterday that it is an issue then they are not watching or clearly ignoring it. Winchester was not to blame for yesterday. All 11 players were :censored: & a management team who seem only able to pick one formation until is doesn't work (every week) so they throw on another striker....poor Nice to read some sense on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBlue Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 This lad is going to have to step it up now. Thought he was ahead of Philliskirk last season, but he's been overtaken in terms of performances. I don't reck he's got much longer with Dunn's purge oncoming, and he's too talented to waste it on a bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOAFC Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 This lad is going to have to step it up now. Thought he was ahead of Philliskirk last season, but he's been overtaken in terms of performances. I don't reck he's got much longer with Dunn's purge oncoming, and he's too talented to waste it on a bench. I think Corney has said he rates him highly, if so then it won't be Dunn's call on whether he goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh_latics Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 This lad is going to have to step it up now. Thought he was ahead of Philliskirk last season, but he's been overtaken in terms of performances. I don't reck he's got much longer with Dunn's purge oncoming, and he's too talented to waste it on a bench. I'm a huge fan of Winch, and think he's very talented, but he was absolutely dire vs Donny. I thought the carrot of Northern Ireland being at the Euros would have urged him to push on this season, but he's gone backwards, if anything (notwithstanding the standard of management). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I'm a huge fan of Winch, and think he's very talented, but he was absolutely dire vs Donny. I thought the carrot of Northern Ireland being at the Euros would have urged him to push on this season, but he's gone backwards, if anything (notwithstanding the standard of management). Looking at the squad now its either him or Croft playing on Saturday. Happy days, I cant frigging wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dec666 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Looking at the squad now its either him or Croft playing on Saturday. Happy days, I cant frigging wait More chance of you finding an apostrophe than Winchester starting on Saturday I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm a huge fan of Winch, and think he's very talented, but he was absolutely dire vs Donny. I thought the carrot of Northern Ireland being at the Euros would have urged him to push on this season, but he's gone backwards, if anything (notwithstanding the standard of management). Every single player has gone backwards.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBlue Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Northern Ireland's manager said on Goals on Sunday that he was watching a Peterborough player on Saturday against Preston. If that isn't incentive for Winchester to play well, he'll never be motivated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy b Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 His lack of progress reflects the environment he is being developed in. He is indicative of the OAFC culture. If I were him I would be putting in transfer request immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 His lack of progress reflects the environment he is being developed in. He is indicative of the OAFC culture. If I were him I would be putting in transfer request immediately.I'm sure there are no barriers at all to him leaving the club. Other than maybe a nominal fee and a 20% sell on clause. If anyone wanted him, he could go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshgaz Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I'm sure there are no barriers at all to him leaving the club. Other than maybe a nominal fee and a 20% sell on clause. If anyone wanted him, he could go.I'm prepared to give him a couple more matches to see if his lack of work rate/ fitness is worth carrying because of his obvious talent. We need to see that talent change games far more than it has done in the 5 years or so he's been in and around the first team. If he goes a large part of the blame is Latics for failing to get the best out of him. Edited January 12, 2016 by welshgaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy b Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 That's my point welsh gaz. We destroy talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Who's we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 That's my point welsh gaz. We destroy talent. How do "we" destroy talent? There's an argument for us not making the best of talent, but I can't see that we destroy it. That's just absolving the players of any personal responsibility for their own careers. Lets take a few recent examples: Matt Smith - took him on from non league, was very dodgy, many wanted rid but he suddenly came good and is now a regular starter in the Championship. James Tarkowski - came through the system, gave him his chance which he took. Despite a few dodgy games where mistakes cost us. Eventually sold to a team getting promoted and now reportedly going for £4 million Kieran Lee - signed as a 20 year old, played him out of position persistantly but he got on with it, made the position his own and got his move to the Championship. Now a first choice in his preferred position. David Mellor - a clear talent but was inconsistent. Excused by a lot of fans as being played in the wrong position, not given a run etc. Offered out on loan but no interest from league teams. Now with Barrow I believe? Carl Winchester - massive ability but fails to show it consistently. Fitness questioned by some. Some players have a winning attitude that makes them succeed despite adversity, some don't. We're a selling club, clearly. If we destroyed talent, then those players agents would have them out of there as fast as their questionable fitness could take them. We may not make the most of players ability sometimes but the door is always open if someone else is willing to pay them a wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 How do "we" destroy talent? There's an argument for us not making the best of talent, but I can't see that we destroy it. That's just absolving the players of any personal responsibility for their own careers. Lets take a few recent examples: Matt Smith - took him on from non league, was very dodgy, many wanted rid but he suddenly came good and is now a regular starter in the Championship. James Tarkowski - came through the system, gave him his chance which he took. Despite a few dodgy games where mistakes cost us. Eventually sold to a team getting promoted and now reportedly going for £4 million Kieran Lee - signed as a 20 year old, played him out of position persistantly but he got on with it, made the position his own and got his move to the Championship. Now a first choice in his preferred position. David Mellor - a clear talent but was inconsistent. Excused by a lot of fans as being played in the wrong position, not given a run etc. Offered out on loan but no interest from league teams. Now with Barrow I believe? Carl Winchester - massive ability but fails to show it consistently. Fitness questioned by some. Some players have a winning attitude that makes them succeed despite adversity, some don't. We're a selling club, clearly. If we destroyed talent, then those players agents would have them out of there as fast as their questionable fitness could take them. We may not make the most of players ability sometimes but the door is always open if someone else is willing to pay them a wage. I think you're underestimating the impact of culture on players, especially those who are in their teens/twenties and know no different. If you're going to be the next Messi then sure, you're going to thrive on anything. But that's not say that a detrimental culture can't prevent the next Leon Osman or Tom Cleverly (to pick on Everton, as they're an ideal mid-table team) from maturing and finding that next opportunity. Few from Latics have done well after leaving, but enough have to show it's possible. I think we'd have seen a lot more if the transition from promising young player to first team wasn't left down to whichever mediocre manager we had in charge at the team - culturally the club seems to struggle with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Hasn't every manager since Dickov (and maybe before?) questioned Winchester's fitness and/or commitment? Granted he was a first team regular during spells under most recent manager he is usually one of the first to get the curly finger. I enjoy watching the lad and he would be one of the first names on the team sheet for me but there are question marks against him that land at his door before anyone elses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 That's my point welsh gaz. We destroy talent. Baxter? I know where he looked like one of the best players outside of the premier league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I think you're underestimating the impact of culture on players, especially those who are in their teens/twenties and know no different. If you're going to be the next Messi then sure, you're going to thrive on anything. But that's not say that a detrimental culture can't prevent the next Leon Osman or Tom Cleverly (to pick on Everton, as they're an ideal mid-table team) from maturing and finding that next opportunity. Few from Latics have done well after leaving, but enough have to show it's possible. I think we'd have seen a lot more if the transition from promising young player to first team wasn't left down to whichever mediocre manager we had in charge at the team - culturally the club seems to struggle with that. There is a path from youth team to first team to a move higher up for those who have the ability and attitude to make that jump. All recent managers have shown willingness to play youth graduates. The problem lies with those who aren't quite ready for that jump because there is no proper in between stage at the club for them. But in fairness these all get an opportunity to go out on loan a few tiers lower where the competitiveness will be decent, but the pressure and scrutiny is not so intense. The point I'm making is that, despite our failings as a club, how often do young players who 'fail' with us then go on to prove us wrong and establish successful league careers elsewhere? Or is the damage that our culture does to them so bad that their careers are irretrievable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Hasn't every manager since Dickov (and maybe before?) questioned Winchester's fitness and/or commitment? Granted he was a first team regular during spells under most recent manager he is usually one of the first to get the curly finger. I enjoy watching the lad and he would be one of the first names on the team sheet for me but there are question marks against him that land at his door before anyone elses. Are his shortcomings & attitude any worse than James Wilson's, or Mills's, or Poleon's, or Cassidy's...? Do we not just tend to focus more on this stuff when it's a player with natural talent? :censored: & inconsistent = acceptable Decent & inconsistent = unacceptable Edited January 12, 2016 by HarryBosch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBlue Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 The Belfast Berbatov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Coleman will be the next to come good somewhere else, like Tarkowki pilloried for mistakes, but improved with maturity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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