China Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 That 45% also includes exports we send outside the EU via Rotterdam. Are you sure about that? Don't forget that we are in a much stronger position trading with the rest of the world as part of the EU, the time we'll spend renegotiating deals from a weaker position will see us go into a recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Are you sure about that? Don't forget that we are in a much stronger position trading with the rest of the world as part of the EU, the time we'll spend renegotiating deals from a weaker position will see us go into a recession. You can piss off. Ruining our steel industry you are Haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I can't wait for the 24th June, when all this is over, by which time the exchange rate will have gone back up and I can get my holiday monies. I was quite interested in debate for a few days maybe a couple of weeks when it started. But as no one can give me a factually correct answer on the basic points:- How much it costs Britain to be in? How much do we get out? There did not seem much point in listening. So we are never going to get an answer on anything complex so we can very get a full and clear picture. Then the politicians started and now as soon as one of them makes and point (factual or not) someone from the other side says 'scaremonger' We might as well be arguing over whether a set shade of orange should be described as 'deep terracotta' or 'burnt orange' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I can't wait for the 24th June, when all this is over, by which time the exchange rate will have gone back up and I can get my holiday monies. I was quite interested in debate for a few days maybe a couple of weeks when it started. But as no one can give me a factually correct answer on the basic points:- How much it costs Britain to be in? How much do we get out? There did not seem much point in listening. So we are never going to get an answer on anything complex so we can very get a full and clear picture. Then the politicians started and now as soon as one of them makes and point (factual or not) someone from the other side says 'scaremonger' We might as well be arguing over whether a set shade of orange should be described as 'deep terracotta' or 'burnt orange' You won't get an answer because neither side knows the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I've been massively surprised by people's opinions this referendum. Loads of people I assumed to be nailed on inners turned out to be outers, and vice versa. I think just about every person I know who has European family connections tends towards out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I'm waiting for anyone to tell me what we have gained from being in the EU that we wouldn't have if we weren't. Something that actually affects the common man. Over to the in crowd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I'm waiting for anyone to tell me what we have gained from being in the EU that we wouldn't have if we weren't. Something that actually affects the common man. Over to the in crowd... Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? We went in because the EEC was growing rapidly and we were being left behind. The Commonwealth didn't work. Our economy was going backwards. We've gained massively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? We went in because the EEC was growing rapidly and we were being left behind. The Commonwealth didn't work. Our economy was going backwards. We've gained massively. Which doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't quit while we're ahead.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? Mostly things that are unlikely to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frizzell54 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) An open letter from the US President. Dear Brit folks, how ya'll doin` ? We in the USA fought a war of independence against those that attempted to impose their taxes and political will on us without our direct consent...but we expect you to. We in the USA have a trade agreement called NAFTA. It has led to fewer jobs and small farms but at least we have not signed up to a political union, complete with its own courts and unelected executive...but we expect you to continue to do so. We in the USA have always valued the right of our great country to decide (through something called “parliamentary democracy”) its own future and destiny...but we do not think you should. As soon as Turkey joins the EU you'll have a European Army big enough to take on them pesky Russians (and free American Forces to concentrate on China) so kick ass guys...the USA is behind you all the way! So stay in the EU and believe me when I say...it will be awesome, especially when TTIP is signed and we get to run your schools, hospitals and jails. Missing you already, BO. Edited April 20, 2016 by frizzell54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? We went in because the EEC was growing rapidly and we were being left behind. The Commonwealth didn't work. Our economy was going backwards. We've gained massively. I'm not sure you read the question correctly - if you're crediting the EU for inventing Easyjet and making Spain hot then you might as well thank it for the Two Ronnies and Lancashire's County Championship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? We went in because the EEC was growing rapidly and we were being left behind. The Commonwealth didn't work. Our economy was going backwards. We've gained massively. Everyone with any credibility wants us to remain in for all those things you've mentioned, Gove and Johnson are just positioning themselves for Cameron's job if we end up voting out, it's a gamble but one of them will get it if the outers win. In the early 80s when we were in one of our frequent recessions I along with thousands of others went to work on German building sites, I find it pretty distasteful that people are now objecting to East Europeans doing the same here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I've had another thought. I've always found it a stretch to believe that the EU brought about peace following WWII. Sure it's played a part, but a larger part was played by the Americans and Russians. But then again...there's a long tradition of British politicians on all sides banging on about sovereignty. When people talk about a supranational institution violating national sovereignty, isn't that just a shade bellicose? Is it too much to imagine a future in which war is back on the European agenda because of fishing or some other economic dispute, especially if we're a Tory dominated petty fascist outpost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I'm surprised at how this poll is turning out. But maybe the great British public has been :censored: on once too often by it's morally reprehensible leaders, bull:censored:ted once too often by it's media (where the circulation war counts more than journalistic truth and objectivity). Or can see that the whole referendum is a charade by which political careers will be saved, rekindled or advanced. In any case, should we vote to stay in, we'll have the EU presidency next year, and will be in our strongest ever position to push for meaningful reforms. Europe will be more likely to acquiesce to our demands should we stay in than she would in the case of exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 But then again...there's a long tradition of British politicians on all sides banging on about sovereignty. When people talk about a supranational institution violating national sovereignty, isn't that just a shade bellicose? Is it too much to imagine a future in which war is back on the European agenda because of fishing or some other economic dispute, especially if we're a Tory dominated petty fascist outpost? Leaving aside your silly use of the word fascist, I don't think so. I do find it worrying that people think that it's a sensible answer to losing an election to transfer power to systems and processes that can't be voted out. You'll find yourself a bit :censored:ed if that same body moves in a direction that you don't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 will just leave this here for folks to ponder "when i walk into Downing street they do as i say " when i walk into Brussels they ignore me " Rupert Murdoch when asked about the differance between the British and EU parliaments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 They are also discounting the £10bn per year we save by not paying into the EU. It doesn't appear anywhere in the document apparently.. Because we have to pay in anyway to get access to the free market. Norway for example pay slightly less than we currently do per capita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Are you sure about that? Don't forget that we are in a much stronger position trading with the rest of the world as part of the EU, the time we'll spend renegotiating deals from a weaker position will see us go into a recession. Rotterdam effect is true but it means at its lowest, it could be 46% exports to the EU but there is a 4% upwards margin of error so it's likely to be higher but it's hard to tell accuratley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Leaving aside your silly use of the word fascist, I don't think so. I do find it worrying that people think that it's a sensible answer to losing an election to transfer power to systems and processes that can't be voted out. You'll find yourself a bit :censored:ed if that same body moves in a direction that you don't like. A bit like what happens to the North and this current government. Incidently, if we leave, Osborne will be out of a job and our only link to Tory investment will leave and that will probably be that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 A bit like what happens to the North and this current government. Incidently, if we leave, Osborne will be out of a job and our only link to Tory investment will leave and that will probably be that.I'm a bit confused about where you're going with that one to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) I'm a bit confused about where you're going with that one to be honestFair enough, I think it sounded better in my head that one. I can't say the Tories are my choice of government, but I think Cameron/Osborne are more middle of the road than the rest of the party. Osborne for example, has continually missed his spending cuts targets. Perhaps because he doesn't actually believe in them? He's an interventionist, he likes his projects like HE and Science and hopefully the Northern Poorhouse/Poorhouse. He has links to Manchester and Manchester has benefitted as a result. However, arguably the anti-EU Tory view is movement is about opposing big government. Post-Brexit, more control would be given to what is the new Tory party (minus Cameron and Osborne). Will they cut harder, how will deal with the North with Osborne no longer our champion? What will happen to the NHS, public services etc? They could do a lot of damage in the 8+ years they have probably got. Brexit could be vote for a government we never voted for and we might not be able to vote them out for a long time. Edited April 21, 2016 by jimsleftfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Affluence? Peace/stability? Workers rights? A huge market? Cheap houses in France and Spain? The ability to retire in the sun? Cheap labour from Poland, giving our economy a massive boost? We went in because the EEC was growing rapidly and we were being left behind. The Commonwealth didn't work. Our economy was going backwards. We've gained massively. My point is why wouldn't we still have all this if we left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Because we have to pay in anyway to get access to the free market. Norway for example pay slightly less than we currently do per capita. and Norway have NO way of voting on any legislation they have to comply with to continue to have said access where as we currently do and therefore can amend or block any legislation that would be harmfull to us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 and Norway have NO way of voting on any legislation they have to comply with to continue to have said access where as we currently do and therefore can amend or block any legislation that would be harmfull to us No we can't. But putting it in terms of , "us vs them," misses the point that there is a whole world of things that just don't need to be done at all, whatever hat the person wearing it has. I don't want to see Germany and France and Portugal and Hungary carrying on becoming relatively poorer whilst the rest of the world progresses. I want them to be rich and successful. But if they choose another path I'd rather not put all my eggs in their basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Fair enough, I think it sounded better in my head that one. I can't say the Tories are my choice of government, but I think Cameron/Osborne are more middle of the road than the rest of the party. Osborne for example, has continually missed his spending cuts targets. Perhaps because he doesn't actually believe in them? He's an interventionist, he likes his projects like HE and Science and hopefully the Northern Poorhouse/Poorhouse. He has links to Manchester and Manchester has benefitted as a result. However, arguably the anti-EU Tory view is movement is about opposing big government. Post-Brexit, more control would be given to what is the new Tory party (minus Cameron and Osborne). Will they cut harder, how will deal with the North with Osborne no longer our champion? What will happen to the NHS, public services etc? They could do a lot of damage in the 8+ years they have probably got. Brexit could be vote for a government we never voted for and we might not be able to vote them out for a long time. To be fair that's about what I thought you meant. You've hit on the truth - Osborne is about where the British public are at. For all the talk he's increased welfare spending and blown loads on gimmicks whilst pretending to make cuts. You'll lose an election going very far from that, which is why they don't. But if you don't like that, is it a better option to put your hope into a once and for all chance that this other thing will always be more like what you like? You might not be asked the question again, whereas there will always be another election Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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