piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 No we can't. But putting it in terms of , "us vs them," misses the point that there is a whole world of things that just don't need to be done at all, whatever hat the person wearing it has. I don't want to see Germany and France and Portugal and Hungary carrying on becoming relatively poorer whilst the rest of the world progresses. I want them to be rich and successful. But if they choose another path I'd rather not put all my eggs in their basket. But your allusions to the lack of growth in the Euro-zone relative to the rest of the world don't do justice to the real picture - Europe is still one of the richest areas on he planet and will remain so for a long time. I'd like to know how Britain is armed to negotiate better trading terms than she already has when she is no longer an economic powerhouse or manufacturing hub? Why would Europe (or anyone else for that matter) want to broker deals favourable to Britain once she left the Euro-zone? Trade in and out of Europe would cost Britain 20 - 30% more through duty and VAT alone and that would have to be the starting point for any negotiation. Here is a long and boring article about the legal ramifications in the event of an 'out' vote... https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjB6dv-7qHMAhUGAxoKHTW6BOgQFggiMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robert-schuman.eu%2Ffr%2Fquestions-d-europe%2F0355-si-le-royaume-uni-quittait-l-union-europeenne-aspects-juridiques-et-consequences-des&usg=AFQjCNFehwOPTEAHdnr1M72Ws0751ptThA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 But your allusions to the lack of growth in the Euro-zone relative to the rest of the world don't do justice to the real picture - Europe is still one of the richest areas on he planet and will remain so for a long time. I'd like to know how Britain is armed to negotiate better trading terms than she already has when she is no longer an economic powerhouse or manufacturing hub? Why would Europe (or anyone else for that matter) want to broker deals favourable to Britain once she left the Euro-zone? Trade in and out of Europe would cost Britain 20 - 30% more through duty and VAT alone and that would have to be the starting point for any negotiation. Here is a long and boring article about the legal ramifications in the event of an 'out' vote... https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjB6dv-7qHMAhUGAxoKHTW6BOgQFggiMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robert-schuman.eu%2Ffr%2Fquestions-d-europe%2F0355-si-le-royaume-uni-quittait-l-union-europeenne-aspects-juridiques-et-consequences-des&usg=AFQjCNFehwOPTEAHdnr1M72Ws0751ptThA If you think we couldn't get a deal as good as Turkey or Iceland have then you are frankly mad. But if the impossible happened and we had no deal at all it would cost about 3% to trade into the EU. Europe will be richer than a lot of placed for a long time, but without growth itself we won't create many new jobs selling to them. Whatever happens it will decline in importance as an export market. However, nobody is suggesting stopping doing business with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 If you think we couldn't get a deal as good as Turkey or Iceland have then you are frankly mad. But if the impossible happened and we had no deal at all it would cost about 3% to trade into the EU. Europe will be richer than a lot of placed for a long time, but without growth itself we won't create many new jobs selling to them. Whatever happens it will decline in importance as an export market. However, nobody is suggesting stopping doing business with them. I too, would be hopeful that we could trade at nearer +3% than +30%. That said, it would be difficult to see how a hermetically sealed frontier beginning at Calais (as would be the wish of both Europe and the UK) would be conducive to that. And you could argue that even a 3% rise is a massive hike (when one of the main 'out' arguments is based on a EU budget shortfall equivalent to 0.3 - 0.5%. the GNP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Add that France would almost certainly practice protectionism the moment Britain left the EU - thus scuppering Britain's main export platform to the rest of the world (Rotterdam effect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 I too, would be hopeful that we could trade at nearer +3% than +30%. That said, it would be difficult to see how a hermetically sealed frontier beginning at Calais (as would be the wish of both Europe and the UK) would be conducive to that. And you could argue that even a 3% rise is a massive hike (when one of the main 'out' arguments is based on a EU budget shortfall equivalent to 0.3 - 0.5%. the GNP). It's 3% for anyone. It would be 0% for us as a member of the EEA. Nothing to see here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 My point is why wouldn't we still have all this if we left? I see no in voters have any valid argument for why we should stay as not one can answer this question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Ah, the British blind spot personified. We want out of Europe because we have no say in matters. Once out, however, we click our fingers and Europe will acquiesce to our every whim? And if Britain remains in the EEA she subjugates to EU immigration rules anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_bro Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Add that France would almost certainly practice protectionism the moment Britain left the EU - thus scuppering Britain's main export platform to the rest of the world (Rotterdam effect). French farmers and wine makers would soon put a stop to that. They want to sell to us. We are the biggest importer of French wine in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Ah, the British blind spot personified. We want out of Europe because we have no say in matters. Once out, however, we click our fingers and Europe will acquiesce to our every whim? And if Britain remains in the EEA she subjugates to EU immigration rules anyway... You remainers love a straw man argument... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 French farmers and wine makers would soon put a stop to that. They want to sell to us. We are the biggest importer of French wine in the world. French wine makers would have no say in the matter. Successive French governments are past masters at the art of protectionism, guarding their own interests and :censored:ing over the perfidious Albion at every available opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 You remainers love a straw man argument... Ah, yes, I don't doubt that immigration isn't your bête-noir, but it still needs saying that Britain remaining in the EEA is much like Britain staying in the EU but without the presidency in 2017. Also worth noting that any free trade agreement within the EEA applies only to EEC sourced goods and raw materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 I don't recall the presidency of the EU allowing us any radical change of direction in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piglinbland Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 Not about radical change, though. More about evolution and careful lobbying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 It's interesting how the voting has swayed towards 'in' since the Obama intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 It's interesting how the voting has swayed towards 'in' since the Obama intervention. I've always wanted to stay in, I'd love to see us being a lot more enthusiastic and take a leading role rather than constantly having hissy fits about everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_bro Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 I've always wanted to stay in, I'd love to see us being a lot more enthusiastic and take a leading role rather than constantly having hissy fits about everything. How can we take a leadiing role? We are one of 28 and always outvoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Due to not being a rampant racist and having half a brain to understand the lies and risks of the out campaign... I will be voting to remain in the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Due to not being a rampant racist and having half a brain to understand the lies and risks of the out campaign... I will be voting to remain in the EU It's a wide ranging debate which unites and divides people across many political persuasions. And there are also the :censored:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_bro Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 Due to not being a rampant racist and having half a brain to understand the lies and risks of the out campaign... I will be voting to remain in the EU Due to not being a rampant racist and having half a brain to understand the lies and risks of the remain campaign... I will be voting to leave the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Due to not being a rampant racist and having half a brain to understand the lies and risks of the remain campaign... I will be voting to leave the EU ?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frizzell54 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Not about radical change, though. More about evolution and careful lobbying. In your dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsChris Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 It's interesting how the voting has swayed towards 'in' since the Obama intervention. I think it had swayed that way already when I last looked at this thread early last week prior to Obama's statement, a big swing from the leave majority when I'd looked at this thread previously. Having said that I'm sure a lot of people who were on the fence will have/will be swayed by the fact such a big figure has expressed their desire for the UK to remain, whatever you think of their motives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 The Government certainly wheeled their big guns out early. I sense more dirty dealing afoot in that it looks set up for them to win a set up fight over this truck emissions regulation. On the other hand Greece is running out of money again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frizzell54 Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) “Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.” ― Joseph Stalin “It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.” JOSEPH GOEBBELS Edited April 30, 2016 by frizzell54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Has anyone else watch Occupied? It's a Norwegian series set in the near future when global warming is casing havoc, eg increased rainfall, taking until 5th May for the sun to come out for the first time... Norway stop all oil and gas production in an attempt to remedy the problem but the EU threaten them with all sorts and send in the Russians to make them switch it all back on,,, Be warned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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