The EU referendum - 23rd June

[leeslover]

Absolutely summed up the issue with the Euro debate right there.

 

Every economic point that previous posters (not me by the way, mine was opinion) have made has been answered with passion, innuendo, hearsay and a complete lack of anything like factual analysis.

 

"permanent stagnation" and "when the Euro collapses into a maelstrom of :censored:" being two points in case. European countries are not permanently stagnating, and the collapse of the Euro is a vague fear of something which may happen. At which point our Government could vote out anyway.

 

So basically; overwhelming economic opinion versus a gut-feeling and you're going with the gut. Bravo.

Output in the Euro zone is at the same level as in 2006. This is not the case for the US, China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Australia and in fact pretty much everywhere else. I call this stagnation, am I wrong? Do you foresee it changing any time soon?

 

Re: the Euro, it is more my opinion. I just can't see how it's sustainable for Germany to keep on growing but not seeing the benefits other than in IOUs from the countries they send their goods to. Each rescue makes the final endgame even bigger. But maybe there will be a solution.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

How can we use the democratic process to ensure that next time there's a vote like this they ensure we understand what it is we're actually voting for or against?

 

I'm still none the wiser and probably even more unsure (about either option) after all this.

 

Half of me still thinks if they can't give me compelling reasons to stay they must be hiding something & we must be better off out, the other half says that in the context of the human race as a whole we have an amazing standard of living because or despite of EU membership so better the devil you know.....

 

I think we're finding out that referendums are actually a tool of powerful people rather than a mechanism of democratic control.

[al_bro]

On that basis the UK will get walked over by anyone. How about we assert ourselves and get involved. If the EU is so controlling, why doesn't the media report on it in the same way as it does with Parliament? We could vote in MEP's based on policy rather than protest. Maybe the 'wife' will have a new found respect for GB then.

The European parliament has no control. The EU is run by 28 unelected commissioners.

[opinions4u]

The European parliament has no control. The EU is run by 28 unelected commissioners.

Often those who've just lost an election.

[monkeykieran]

This referendum should be one of the easiest questions in history, but as ever the English public are contriving to bollocks it up.

 

Leaving the EU would be the single most stupid thing Britain has ever done, not because we couldn't survive it but because it would basically be an entire country ignoring all the evidence and voting for a jump into the dark because we are upset at something we cannot define.

 

Quite aside from that, I actually feel a kinship with Europeans which I am surprised more people don't share, and finally the EU project has fundamentally ended warfare in one of the most turbulent areas in the World. What's not to like?

touche

[monkeykieran]

Some interesting posts on general election voting - you do all realise that in a general election your vote has no effect on the party in overall power but solely counts towards your local mp (there is no such thing as voting for a party)? Extremely worrying that people don't grasp that

[monkeykieran]

Surprised but happy that the vote of male members with a connection to oldham so far have voted in favour of remaining - if this is in anyway representative we may just survive this little tantrum

[jimsleftfoot]

The European parliament has no control. The EU is run by 28 unelected commissioners.

Incorrect. Each country puts forward a commissioner chosen by the elected government of that nation (and so representative of that elected governments views). They can propose law but it is adopted by the European Parliament which is made up of voted for MEP's.

Edited April 16, 2016 by jimsleftfoot

[opinions4u]

Surprised but happy that the vote of male members with a connection to oldham so far have voted in favour of remaining

Male? All of them?

 

- if this is in anyway representative we may just survive this little tantrum

I think the word tantrum is a bit :censored: to be honest.

[monkeykieran]

I predict that over 95% of posters on here are male, given the % of female attendees at bp.

 

I think tantrum is a good descriptor but that's just my opinion 4 u! ;)

[Yard Dog]

Output in the Euro zone is at the same level as in 2006. This is not the case for the US, China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Australia and in fact pretty much everywhere else. I call this stagnation, am I wrong? Do you foresee it changing any time soon?

Re: the Euro, it is more my opinion. I just can't see how it's sustainable for Germany to keep on growing but not seeing the benefits other than in IOUs from the countries they send their goods to. Each rescue makes the final endgame even bigger. But maybe there will be a solution.

Ze final solution ya?

 

[Where's that smiley hiding behind a wall gone?]

[leeslover]

69 all. Hu Hu. Hu Hu. Huhubuhuhu.

[al_bro]

Incorrect. Each country puts forward a commissioner chosen by the elected government of that nation (and so representative of that elected governments views). They can propose law but it is adopted by the European Parliament which is made up of voted for MEP's.

Chosen by, not elected! The commission propose law which is rubber stamped by the grossly overpaid talking shop, which is then rubber stamped by our Parliament, if it doesn't go straight onto the statute book.One thing the EU Parliament can do, is vote down Cameron's so called negotiated agreement. Not that t's worth a can of beans anyway.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

69 all. Hu Hu. Hu Hu. Huhubuhuhu.

Hi. Hi hi hi. Hi hi hi hi hi hi hi.

[blueatheart]

If MP's are supposed to represent the people, how come the amount voting leave is less than 40%?

 

Self serving wankers ?

[ChaddySmoker]

If MP's are supposed to represent the people, how come the amount voting leave is less than 40%?

 

Self serving wankers

Thank you for your constructive contribution to the debate expressed ever so eloquently!

[HarryBosch]

I'm swaying back towards leave with all this £4,300 per family bollocks.

 

They're describing possible lower economic growth as a "loss" and dividing it between the number of families in the UK to scaremonger.

 

"We don't think the economy will grow quite as much by 2030 if we're out of the EU as it would if we stay in, therefore, you'll all be £4,300 worse off"

 

:censored: off eh....

[HarryBosch]

Has anybody found any info on how our economy was affected while things were going well in the EU v when it all went tits up with Greece?

 

That would be useful to know...

[HarryBosch]

Gove's a sinister :censored:er but I'd imagine he's rarely wrong about much...

 

Same for Boris Johnson behind the daft veneer....

[leeslover]

I'm swaying back towards leave with all this £4,300 per family bollocks.

 

They're describing possible lower economic growth as a "loss" and dividing it between the number of families in the UK to scaremonger.

 

"We don't think the economy will grow quite as much by 2030 if we're out of the EU as it would if we stay in, therefore, you'll all be £4,300 worse off"

 

:censored: off eh....

They've already been slated for using a completely unsuitable model for the prediction (all economic forecasting models are unsuitable but that's another topic). What's telling for me is the EU share of our export trade has declined from 55 to 45% over a decade. Locking ourselves into the stagnant markets of the Eurozone and away from. The growing areas of the world is cast iron certain to make us poorer, not richer.

[HarryBosch]

They've already been slated for using a completely unsuitable model for the prediction (all economic forecasting models are unsuitable but that's another topic). What's telling for me is the EU share of our export trade has declined from 55 to 45% over a decade. Locking ourselves into the stagnant markets of the Eurozone and away from. The growing areas of the world is cast iron certain to make us poorer, not richer.

 

Or would that just make big business and big government poorer not richer?

 

There's a lot of money for those people in the standard of living of us plebs so they'd find a way to maintain it and keep improving it & keep profiting from it regardless wouldn't they?

[blueatheart]

Thank you for your constructive contribution to the debate expressed ever so eloquently!

I have to target my contributions to my audience.

 

They've already been slated for using a completely unsuitable model for the prediction (all economic forecasting models are unsuitable but that's another topic). What's telling for me is the EU share of our export trade has declined from 55 to 45% over a decade. Locking ourselves into the stagnant markets of the Eurozone and away from. The growing areas of the world is cast iron certain to make us poorer, not richer.

 

I'm waiting for the headline in the Sun - Misplaced X shows up Osborne.

 

Could cover a multitude of sins

[leeslover]

 

Vacuous guff. Although kudos for being the first to mention French farmers.

Paddy Ashdown warning us that leaving the EU would open us up to worldwide supplies of cheap food. Sounds like he's thinking about the French farmers too.

[al_bro]

I'm swaying back towards leave with all this £4,300 per family bollocks.

 

They're describing possible lower economic growth as a "loss" and dividing it between the number of families in the UK to scaremonger.

 

"We don't think the economy will grow quite as much by 2030 if we're out of the EU as it would if we stay in, therefore, you'll all be £4,300 worse off"

 

:censored: off eh....

They are also discounting the £10bn per year we save by not paying into the EU. It doesn't appear anywhere in the document apparently..

[al_bro]

They've already been slated for using a completely unsuitable model for the prediction (all economic forecasting models are unsuitable but that's another topic). What's telling for me is the EU share of our export trade has declined from 55 to 45% over a decade. Locking ourselves into the stagnant markets of the Eurozone and away from. The growing areas of the world is cast iron certain to make us poorer, not richer.

That 45% also includes exports we send outside the EU via Rotterdam.