General Election - 8th June 2017

[Magister]

6 minutes ago, 24hoursfromtulsehill said:

 

Don't get me started on the poverty of the political debate in this country. We used to have Attlee versus Churchill. Now we've got Lynton Crosby versus Seamus Milne.

You mean Seamus Milne the  son of the former head of the  BBC , educated privately at Winchester College and Balliol who is  peddling the sound bite that the system is rigged for the rich and privileged,....well he should know I suppose ?    Seriously you are spot on with your point on political debate

[Crusoe]

2 hours ago, Magister said:

We all make counter arguments to all colours of politicians. When a politician hears these arguments and changes his/ her position or action it is then denigrated as a U turn? Why are U turns always classed as a show of weakness and not a show of confidence and strength? 

 

There's an interesting debate in this. Are politicians supposed to reflect "the will of the majority" of the voting public, come what may? Are they supposed to do what's best for the country regardless of what the public clamours for? And if so, how do they know what that is - policy by principles? Policy by technocracy? Feels like we've tried most of these and none really worked.

 

Personally I liked the theoretical idea of Burkean representation -

 

Quote

...it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living ... Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

 

- particularly in an era of media monopolies, fake news and other factors that lead me to the (admittedly arrogant) view that an awful lot of people don't know or don't think hard about what's best for everyone. (Including me, FWIW.)

 

But of course that's also just a form of elitism - we, your rulers and betters, know best, so we'll do your thinking for you, proles.

 

How do you balance principle and populist pragmatism?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Crusoe

[Magister]

5 minutes ago, Crusoe said:

 

There's an interesting debate in this. Are politicians supposed to reflect "the will of the majority" of the voting public, come what may? Are they supposed to do what's best for the country regardless of what the public clamours for? And if so, how do they know what that is - policy by principles? Policy by technocracy? Feels like we've tried most of these and none really worked.

 

Personally I liked the theoretical idea of Burkean representation -

 

 

 

 

- particularly in an era of media monopolies, fake news and otehr factors that lead me to the (admittedly arrogant) view that an awful lot of people don't know or don't think hard about what's best for everyone. (Including me, FWIW.)

 

But of course that's also just a form of elitism - we, your rulers and betters, know best, so we'll do your thinking for you, proles.

 

How do you balance principle and populist pragmatism?

There is 3 year PhD to be had in answering that!  Good post

[Crusoe]

Well, there was an inconclusive six months out of a four year degree, then a succession of temp jobs...

[ChaddySmoker]

1 hour ago, Magister said:

You mean Seamus Milne the  son of the former head of the  BBC , educated privately at Winchester College and Balliol who is  peddling the sound bite that the system is rigged for the rich and privileged,....well he should know I suppose ?    Seriously you are spot on with your point on political debate

A lot of people go for cheap sound bites dont they Magister?

[Magister]

3 hours ago, ChaddySmoker said:

A lot of people go for cheap sound bites dont they Magister?

Thanks for giving it another airing? mind you at £38,000 a year fees at Winchester College it is hardly a cheap soundbite and it is bit rich for the priveleged leader of the Labour message to write an anti grammar school script especially as Jeremey's son went to a selective school ......but hey ho blame the Sun and The Mail for stigmatising socialist values.

[leeslover]

18 minutes ago, Magister said:

Thanks for giving it another airing? mind you at £38,000 a year fees at Winchester College it is hardly a cheap soundbite and it is bit rich for the priveleged leader of the Labour message to write an anti grammar school script especially as Jeremey's son went to a selective school ......but hey ho blame the Sun and The Mail for stigmatising socialist values.

Corbyn split up with his wife over it...

[Magister]

8 minutes ago, leeslover said:

Corbyn split up with his wife over it...

..and had a relationship with Diane Abbot ....who sent her son to a. Grammar school .....and is now shadow Home Secretary.....the right wing press could not make it up!

[Crusoe]

Yes, we're just lucky no politicians in any other parties have done anything dubious or hypocritical.

[wroteforluck87]

It's simple for me vote Tory and kiss good bye to the NHS and a vote for anyone other than Labour is a vote for the Tories.

Edited April 25, 2017 by wroteforluck87

[ChaddySmoker]

9 hours ago, Magister said:

Thanks for giving it another airing? mind you at £38,000 a year fees at Winchester College it is hardly a cheap soundbite and it is bit rich for the priveleged leader of the Labour message to write an anti grammar school script especially as Jeremey's son went to a selective school ......but hey ho blame the Sun and The Mail for stigmatising socialist values.

OK So it is allright if the sound bite isnt cheap? I thought that the intention of the thread was discussion, silly me.

Will you stop mentioning socialism-you just dont understand it, we get that. That is fine.

It is your choice-just stop ramming that fact down our throats and expecting us to follow you.

[Magister]

28 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said:

OK So it is allright if the sound bite isnt cheap? I thought that the intention of the thread was discussion, silly me.

Will you stop mentioning socialism-you just dont understand it, we get that. That is fine.

It is your choice-just stop ramming that fact down our throats and expecting us to follow you.

Umm ...it was you who introduced into the discussion your coping strategy opinion that the Sun and the Daily Mail would win it....not a worn out sound bite that is it?   once agin we get an airing of that arrogance of " we socialists know best , if only the electorate were not thick we would put the world right"  

[Magister]

2 hours ago, wroteforluck87 said:

It's simple for me vote Tory and kiss good bye to the NHS and a vote for anyone other than Labour is a vote for the Tories.

Would you like to explain the disaster of the NHS under a Labour administration in Wales?

[Magister]

3 hours ago, Crusoe said:

Yes, we're just lucky no politicians in any other parties have done anything dubious or hypocritical.

.....and then oppose anybody else having the freedom to do what they did 

[Crusoe]

19 minutes ago, Magister said:

.....and then oppose anybody else having the freedom to do what they did 

 

Exactly. No party has a monopoly on hypocrisy.

[Magister]

8 minutes ago, Crusoe said:

 

Exactly. No party has a monopoly on hypocrisy.

I agree

[ChaddySmoker]

46 minutes ago, Magister said:

Umm ...it was you who introduced into the discussion your coping strategy opinion that the Sun and the Daily Mail would win it....not a worn out sound bite that is it?   once agin we get an airing of that arrogance of " we socialists know best , if only the electorate were not thick we would put the world right"  

You are reading into what I say a lot that I have not even mentioned and furthermore are now trying to highlights its importance to me.

I just do not think that you get this 'discussion' bit at all. A bit like the vicar's daughter who is going to the country to try to get a bigger majority.

When asked for the reasons why she did a U turn and called an election now her reply is that she wants a bigger majority!!!!!!!!!!!

She is totally lacking in any conviction, has shown no grasp of leadership and come out with little policy apart from some ideas nicked off Labour.

Her cabinet are yesterdays men, her Chancellor is on borrowed time and her Foreign Secretary one gaff away from the sack-put there for that reason obviously.

If you want to vote for a characterless pensioner in flat shoes trying to sell the idea of a brexit that she never even wanted go on then.

But there has to be an alternative, there really has to be for all of our futures.

 

 

[wroteforluck87]

1 hour ago, Magister said:

Would you like to explain the disaster of the NHS under a Labour administration in Wales?

 

https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/guidelines-policy/underfunded-underdoctored-overstretched-nhs-2016

[Magister]

Would you now like to address the question......why has the NHS under Labour Administraion in Wales performed so badly in comparison to the NHS elsewhere in the UK under different administrations

[singe]

On 22/04/2017 at 9:32 AM, blueatheart said:

Any candidate running in Oldham on a ticket of ownership change at latics would get my vote.

I doubt any have the funds......!

[Magister]

27 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said:

You are reading into what I say a lot that I have not even mentioned and furthermore are now trying to highlights its importance to me.

I just do not think that you get this 'discussion' bit at all. A bit like the vicar's daughter who is going to the country to try to get a bigger majority.

When asked for the reasons why she did a U turn and called an election now her reply is that she wants a bigger majority!!!!!!!!!!!

She is totally lacking in any conviction, has shown no grasp of leadership and come out with little policy apart from some ideas nicked off Labour.

Her cabinet are yesterdays men, her Chancellor is on borrowed time and her Foreign Secretary one gaff away from the sack-put there for that reason obviously.

If you want to vote for a characterless pensioner in flat shoes trying to sell the idea of a brexit that she never even wanted go on then.

But there has to be an alternative, there really has to be for all of our futures.

 

 

"vicar's daughter in flat shoes" ...... and you say you want informed reasoned intelligent debate.? 

[View Of Golden Gate]

17 hours ago, Crusoe said:

 

There's an interesting debate in this. Are politicians supposed to reflect "the will of the majority" of the voting public, come what may? Are they supposed to do what's best for the country regardless of what the public clamours for? And if so, how do they know what that is - policy by principles? Policy by technocracy? Feels like we've tried most of these and none really worked.

 

Personally I liked the theoretical idea of Burkean representation -

 

 

- particularly in an era of media monopolies, fake news and other factors that lead me to the (admittedly arrogant) view that an awful lot of people don't know or don't think hard about what's best for everyone. (Including me, FWIW.)

 

But of course that's also just a form of elitism - we, your rulers and betters, know best, so we'll do your thinking for you, proles.

 

How do you balance principle and populist pragmatism?

 

A debate I have often struggled to fall on one side or the other of, I find myself leaning towards the idea that we should not decide our own laws. I am not an expert, I am also self centered and more worried about how laws and regulations will affect me rather than the greater good. Therefore I should have a limited say on the laws that will make a difference to everyone's lives, I also do not have the time to read the pros and cons of every law. So I choose to vote for the MP who will represent me best and do their best to create the country I'd like to live in, I do think there is a danger in U turns, as they are the entrusted expert. When a U turn is conducted I lose trust in that whoever made the turn as it to me it means they did not asses the options thoroughly enough in the first place, we have the election to decide what type of country we want, when the vote is made governments should do as they see fit.

 

I will still disagree with them and make my voice heard, however, they are the elected officials, not us. We should be able to trust them to make the laws, if they are doing a bad job we have by-elections to decrease their majority and General to bring in someone new. Others will no doubt feel differently, but I do think there is some merit in a government making a choice that the people will not like if they feel it is for the good of the country and the people they are sworn to serve.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Hoping for a change of Government? Thinking of voting tactically?

https://www.tactical2017.com/

 

[frizzell54]

On 25/04/2017 at 8:52 AM, Magister said:

Would you like to explain the disaster of the NHS under a Labour administration in Wales?

 

Or how well the NHS did under Andy 'Mid Staffs' Burnham.

[jimsleftfoot]

On 25/04/2017 at 10:24 AM, Magister said:

Would you now like to address the question......why has the NHS under Labour Administraion in Wales performed so badly in comparison to the NHS elsewhere in the UK under different administrations

 

Can you demonstrate how the NHS in England is doing much better? There is an argument to say that the Tories have been quick to point out the failings in Wales, but there are plenty of examples in England of similar. Pennine Acute Trust for example? At the end of the day, the Welsh NHS is subject to Tory cuts just as much as any English NHS Trust.