JoeP Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: Who knows Indeed. Accountability diluted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, JoeP said: Indeed. Accountability diluted... I genuinely see that as a good thing. It's moving away from the blame culture that exists in the sport that has resulted in the ludicrous turnover of managers at so many clubs. Within the 92 the lifetime of 2years and 28 days gets a manager into the top 20 longest serving; barely a sleep over 3 years means top 10. That's just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Dave_Og said: I genuinely see that as a good thing. It's moving away from the blame culture that exists in the sport that has resulted in the ludicrous turnover of managers at so many clubs. Within the 92 the lifetime of 2years and 28 days gets a manager into the top 20 longest serving; barely a sleep over 3 years means top 10. That's just ridiculous. Right, so it all goes tits-up. Who gets the sack? The manager? The "analyst" department? The entire board? All of them?? Someone's got to take responsibility... Pete Wild (someone who I think our fanbase generally hold in a higher regard than Unsworth) said on the phone-in a few weeks ago that he insists he picks and has the final say on signings as he's got to work with them. I think that's a much better way of doing it for all concerned. The manager is accountable for the signings and also gets to work with players he wants rather than ones that have been imposed on him because someone has crunched some attribute numbers on an Excel spreadsheet in the office.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Bobledgersheart said: The big difference nowadays is that nobody can match the enormous salaries "earned" by top flight reserves/rejects bar those in the Championship gambling on getting in to the Premiership. The game is, sadly, totally money orientated so picking up an Irwin, Barrett or Warhurst or a waning Johnstone, Quixall or Wilson is nigh impossible so we have to trade in the bargain basement and non-league. Still plenty of Vardy's about like when he was at Stocksbridge Steels..the key is spotting them early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, JoeP said: Right, so it all goes tits-up. Who gets the sack? The manager? The "analyst" department? The entire board? All of them?? Someone's got to take responsibility... Pete Wild (someone who I think our fanbase generally hold in a higher regard than Unsworth) said on the phone-in a few weeks ago that he insists he picks and has the final say on signings as he's got to work with them. I think that's a much better way of doing it for all concerned. The manager is accountable for the signings and also gets to work with players he wants rather than ones that have imposed on him because someone has crunched some attribute numbers on an Excel spreadsheet in the office.... There are lots of reasons why managers get fired; some justifiable, some not - but none of them, not one, can be proved to be the right decision. The best run clubs can move relatively seamlessly from one manager to another because all those structures are in place when a manager moves on voluntarily (I'll cite Brentford). Yes, public accountability is focused but behind the scenes those that make decisions will know who is actually responsible. As an example we probably expect Unsworth to sit with the recruitment team in May (maybe already done) to say find me a right back (maybe a right wing back!) and one would hope that they are building a database which will help to filter possible options based on more criteria than simply the position they play. There's every chance (close to a certainty I'd say) that Unsworth will have seen very few of them actually play and ever if he has he won't have been focused on them if they were in a match he was managing. Now, he can look at the data and videos but the days of managers actually being involved in scouting are over (did they ever really exist?) but is he really solely responsible for the recruitment if he decides he wants to go for the option presented? I'd suggest not, even if he does have the final say which I would hope would be the case. Clearly this is very different to having a coachload of French Lads presented to him by Mo post signing, but there are many shades of grey in there as to responsibility. Accountability is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: can be proved to be the right decision. Eh? They’re countless examples where a manager gets sacked and the new guy (with the same players) turns it around. So in retrospect it clearly can be proved to be the correct decision. 6 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: The best run clubs can move relatively seamlessly from one manager to another because all those structures are in place when a manager moves on voluntarily (I'll cite Brentford). Yes, public accountability is focused but behind the scenes those that make decisions will know who is actually responsible. They can, if the club dictates the style and philosophy. Sawnsea and Brighton are very good examples. But the club must set the philosophy and principles, and then the manager must agree to play in the agreed style. We don’t have that- this is clearly Unsworth style there for he must take responsibility and accountability. 13 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: Now, he can look at the data and videos but the days of managers actually being involved in scouting are over (did they ever really exist?) but is he really solely responsible for the recruitment if he decides he wants to go for the option presented? I'd suggest not, even if he does have the final say which I would hope would be the case. I had this discussion with Andy the other week. When we win - not one person says ‘oh the recruitment team have done well’ Unsworth gets the praise. When we lose, suddenly people will say, ‘yeah, but he might not always get his first pick.’ It’s very simple to me. If he owns the wins. He owns the losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 20 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: There are lots of reasons why managers get fired; some justifiable, some not - but none of them, not one, can be proved to be the right decision. The best run clubs can move relatively seamlessly from one manager to another because all those structures are in place when a manager moves on voluntarily (I'll cite Brentford). Yes, public accountability is focused but behind the scenes those that make decisions will know who is actually responsible. As an example we probably expect Unsworth to sit with the recruitment team in May (maybe already done) to say find me a right back (maybe a right wing back!) and one would hope that they are building a database which will help to filter possible options based on more criteria than simply the position they play. There's every chance (close to a certainty I'd say) that Unsworth will have seen very few of them actually play and ever if he has he won't have been focused on them if they were in a match he was managing. Now, he can look at the data and videos but the days of managers actually being involved in scouting are over (did they ever really exist?) but is he really solely responsible for the recruitment if he decides he wants to go for the option presented? I'd suggest not, even if he does have the final say which I would hope would be the case. Clearly this is very different to having a coachload of French Lads presented to him by Mo post signing, but there are many shades of grey in there as to responsibility. Accountability is different. Although we have already seen DU sign players who played for him as youths. They may have looked decent to him them, but it doesn't mean they are decent now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 19 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: There are lots of reasons why managers get fired; some justifiable, some not - but none of them, not one, can be proved to be the right decision. The best run clubs can move relatively seamlessly from one manager to another because all those structures are in place when a manager moves on voluntarily (I'll cite Brentford). Yes, public accountability is focused but behind the scenes those that make decisions will know who is actually responsible. As an example we probably expect Unsworth to sit with the recruitment team in May (maybe already done) to say find me a right back (maybe a right wing back!) and one would hope that they are building a database which will help to filter possible options based on more criteria than simply the position they play. There's every chance (close to a certainty I'd say) that Unsworth will have seen very few of them actually play and ever if he has he won't have been focused on them if they were in a match he was managing. Now, he can look at the data and videos but the days of managers actually being involved in scouting are over (did they ever really exist?) but is he really solely responsible for the recruitment if he decides he wants to go for the option presented? I'd suggest not, even if he does have the final say which I would hope would be the case. Clearly this is very different to having a coachload of French Lads presented to him by Mo post signing, but there are many shades of grey in there as to responsibility. Accountability is different. David Dunn? Darren Kelly? Selim?? I mean I think (!) it's accountability, rather than responsibility we need clarity on. Scouting has changed over the years - stats databases, youtube videos, etc have replaced your BP1960s going to games and actually watching players. But effectively "scouting" is what this "data analyst department" should be doing. Just like the scouts back in the day weren't accountable for the signings a manager makes, the "data analyst department" shouldn't be accountable for the signings the manager makes now. They should be his decisions, his signings and he should be accountable.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Sacking managers without improving the playing staff and increasing the wage bill generally doesn't bring about much change in performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 42 minutes ago, JoeP said: David Dunn? Darren Kelly? Selim?? I mean I think (!) it's accountability, rather than responsibility we need clarity on. Scouting has changed over the years - stats databases, youtube videos, etc have replaced your BP1960s going to games and actually watching players. But effectively "scouting" is what this "data analyst department" should be doing. Just like the scouts back in the day weren't accountable for the signings a manager makes, the "data analyst department" shouldn't be accountable for the signings the manager makes now. They should be his decisions, his signings and he should be accountable.. You are correct scouts were never accountable, they just pass on their views to managers who are accountable. What I do know is when many successful managers move on they often ask the scouts to follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 hours ago, JoeP said: David Dunn? Darren Kelly? Selim?? I mean I think (!) it's accountability, rather than responsibility we need clarity on. Scouting has changed over the years - stats databases, youtube videos, etc have replaced your BP1960s going to games and actually watching players. But effectively "scouting" is what this "data analyst department" should be doing. Just like the scouts back in the day weren't accountable for the signings a manager makes, the "data analyst department" shouldn't be accountable for the signings the manager makes now. They should be his decisions, his signings and he should be accountable.. Highly likely but what didn't happen can't be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 5 hours ago, League one forever said: Eh? They’re countless examples where a manager gets sacked and the new guy (with the same players) turns it around. So in retrospect it clearly can be proved to be the correct decision. But you can't prove that things wouldn't have turned round without the sacking. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 47 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said: But you can't prove that things wouldn't have turned round without the sacking. That's the point. Ok- you can’t prove Abdallah wouldn’t have turned it around. Oh wait. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 56 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said: But you can't prove that things wouldn't have turned round without the sacking. That's the point. Basically, what you're saying is, we should have stuck with Shez! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 2 hours ago, League one forever said: Ok- you can’t prove Abdallah wouldn’t have turned it around. Oh wait. . No, you can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 28 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said: No, you can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 59 minutes ago, League one forever said: Well you can't can you. Be one of the thickest things I've ever heard if you try and claim it can be proven. Huge chance it wouldn't but you can never prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said: Huge chance it wouldn't but you can never prove it. Hence why managers get sacked, and awful owners leave. Whether it can be proven is completely moot. In any walk of life, if something is going badly wrong and it’s staring you in face- you don’t wait to proven right or wrong. You make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, League one forever said: Hence why managers get sacked, and awful owners leave. Whether it can be proven is completely moot. In any walk of life, if something is going badly wrong and it’s staring you in face- you don’t wait to proven right or wrong. You make changes. So changing from your statement of "it can be proved" then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 25 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said: So changing from your statement of "it can be proved" then... Nope. Because it’s blinding obvious the proof is in the pudding. . . Abdallah proved he wasn’t good at running at a football club- because his record proves that. I don’t need to wait another x amount of years to be proven wrong. Frank come in, all the shit suddenly goes away because his record thus far proves he can run a football club. Do you see where this is going? It’s got nothing to do with an abstract dictionary meaning of proof- and everything to do with common sense reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 21 hours ago, League one forever said: Nope. Because it’s blinding obvious the proof is in the pudding. . . Abdallah proved he wasn’t good at running at a football club- because his record proves that. I don’t need to wait another x amount of years to be proven wrong. Frank come in, all the shit suddenly goes away because his record thus far proves he can run a football club. Do you see where this is going? It’s got nothing to do with an abstract dictionary meaning of proof- and everything to do with common sense reality. You're still blatantly wrong and the fact you're arguing it is beyond me. You can't prove it. You know you can't. We can all say that it looked highly likely. Stop chatting shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 4 hours ago, mcfluff1985 said: You're still blatantly wrong and the fact you're arguing it is beyond me. You can't prove it. You know you can't. We can all say that it looked highly likely. Stop chatting shit When you can debate intelligently come back to me. Until then. . . keep posting your nonsense. At the very least you’re amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 well, it wasn't quite Napalm but.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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