NIKI1234 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Using the same logic, Wigan, say, should have built a stadium holding about 7000. Reading should have built one with an 11000 capacity. Why do so many lower division clubs still build grounds that hold far more than the gates they've averaged over the past few decades, or have any realistic hope of avergaing any time soon? Fair Points but these two teams also had DW and JM who bankrolled these stadiums... Another point.... Wigan had thousands of empty seats against the biggest team in the world a couple of weeks back which also included 5000 Man Utd fans. They are regually getting 16-17k now which most of the time includes at least 3k away fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 With an unlimited capacity and a successful table topping team what sort of crowds would you expect us to be able to acheive at this level and championship level? Who's talking about an unlimited capacity? Nobody has an unlimited capacity. It's a meaningless term. As I've said, if we attracted 18-19000 last time we did well in the division above (and regularly began attracting well over 12000 even for some routine games), I don't see why this shouldn't be aimed for again, especially when similar clubs in similar towns manage it without too much trouble. The reason itisn't being aimed for is that there is no intention on the part of the club to try to do as well as that again. It isn't rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Fair Points but these two teams also had DW and JM who bankrolled these stadiums... Another point.... Wigan had thousands of empty seats against the biggest team in the world a couple of weeks back which also included 5000 Man Utd fans. They are regually getting 16-17k now which most of the time includes at least 3k away fans Ah, bankrolling again. Perhaps we ought to start looking for some decent bankrolling. If not, perhaps we should look at emulating those clubs little or no bigger than us who manage to achieve things without a 'sugar daddy.' After all, it's got to be better than this slow death we're witnessing. I don't care what crowds Wigan are getting. Let Wigan be Wigan. We're an historically bigger club than they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIKI1234 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Who's talking about an unlimited capacity? Nobody has an unlimited capacity. It's a meaningless term. As I've said, if we attracted 18-19000 last time we did well in the division above (and regularly began attracting well over 12000 even for some routine games), I don't see why this shouldn't be aimed for again, especially when similar clubs in similar towns manage it without too much trouble. The reason itisn't being aimed for is that there is no intention on the part of the club to try to do as well as that again. It isn't rocket science. I dont know whether you have noticed but the last time we were succesful in the division above was 1990 when we won the league, average attendence for the season 9728 Edited September 22, 2009 by NIKI1234 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Don't write The Corp of on this one you know....... Wigan used to get crowds on a par with Rochdale, so the fact they get 12-15K home fans shows that with a bit of ambition and investment you can increase your attendance by a hell of a lot. What does that quote saY "build it and they will come" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) I dont know whether you have noticed but the last time we were succesful in the division above was 1990 when we won the league, average attendence for the season 9728 We won the league in 1991. Average attendance that season was over 12000. Edit: Actually, just looking at the figures you supplied and the average that season was 13,232. For some reason we're being told that this could never happen again. I wonder what that reason might be? Ah, got it! The reason is that the club never expects to be challenging at that level again. Edited September 22, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Don't write The Corp of on this one you know....... Wigan used to get crowds on a par with Rochdale, so the fact they get 12-15K home fans shows that with a bit of ambition and investment you can increase your attendance by a hell of a lot. What does that quote saY "build it and they will come" Precisely. Wigan were averaging under 2000 during the late 1990s. It's amazing where a bit of ambition can get a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Precisely. Wigan were averaging under 2000 during the late 1990s. It's amazing where a bit of ambition can get a club. No. It's amazing where a lot of money can get a club. There is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIKI1234 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) We won the league in 1991. Average attendance that season was over 12000. Edit: Actually, just looking at the figures you supplied and the average that season was 13,232. For some reason we're being told that this could never happen again. I wonder what that reason might be? Ah, got it! The reason is that the club never expects to be challenging at that level again. Sorry you are correct 1991 it was 13K followed by 15k, 13K, 12.5K..... In our most sucessfull era in the past 100 years we would have only just manged to fill a 13K seater stadium, whoopy do! Unless we get to the Prem again I dont believe we will average those crowds again even in the championship.... If we did by some miracle make the Premiership then I would agree with you that 12K would not be enough.... Thats when we would need to get the expansion plans out, as has already been confirmed by SC the ground will be built with a veiw to expand Edited September 22, 2009 by NIKI1234 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) No. It's amazing where a lot of money can get a club. There is a difference. There is a difference but when talking about success there is a strong link... You need both... We seem to lack either... Edited September 22, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Sorry you are correct 1991 it was 13K followed by 15k, 13K, 12.5K..... In our most sucessfull era in the past 100 years we would have only just manged to fill a 13K seater stadium, whoopy do! Unless we get to the Prem again I dont believe we will average those crowds again even in the championship.... If we did by some miracle make the Premiership then I would agree with you that 12K would not be enough.... Thats when we would need to get the expansion plans out, as has already been confirmed by SC the ground will be built with a veiw to expand A lot of what you say would be true.....if you simply ignore what a vastly more sell able product the premiership is now... I can imagine latics getting 17 to 25 in the prem depending on the occasion... Edited September 22, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 No. It's amazing where a lot of money can get a club. There is a difference. As I said, there are also clubs that made massive strides without a Whelen-type 'sugar daddy.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Sorry you are correct 1991 it was 13K followed by 15k, 13K, 12.5K..... In our most sucessfull era in the past 100 years we would have only just manged to fill a 13K seater stadium, whoopy do! Unless we get to the Prem again I dont believe we will average those crowds again even in the championship.... If we did by some miracle make the Premiership then I would agree with you that 12K would not be enough.... Thats when we would need to get the expansion plans out, as has already been confirmed by SC the ground will be built with a veiw to expand It was a period when crowds were significantly lower across the game as a whole. Although it still doesn't answer the question of why, if we could then average more than the proposed capacity at Failsworth, we can't ever hope to do it again. Once again it seems necessary to point out that whatever crowd you average at the present, or even what you can hope to average in the forseeable future, usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the capacity a club sets for its ground. The vast majority of clubs do not come close to filling their grounds to capacity every game and never have. The proposed stadium at Failsworth will never be expanded because the setting of such a low capacity in the first place indicates that the aim is to survive at the lower end of the Football League. Which mean that crowds will only fall further. Pull your head out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It was a period when crowds were significantly lower across the game as a whole. Although it still doesn't answer the question of why, if we could then average more than the proposed capacity at Failsworth, we can't ever hope to do it again. Once again it seems necessary to point out that whatever crowd you average at the present, or even what you can hope to average in the forseeable future, usually has nothing whatsoever to do with the capacity a club sets for its ground. The vast majority of clubs do not come close to filling their grounds to capacity every game and never have. The proposed stadium at Failsworth will never be expanded because the setting of such a low capacity in the first place indicates that the aim is to survive at the lower end of the Football League. Which mean that crowds will only fall further. Pull your head out. that season we went up was the last for standing,season after it was all seater,this probably had a bearing on crowd size. as we all know those fantstic years of cup runs and promotion was packed out most games,but the official figures no doubt heavily massaged. were not doing this capacity hokey cokey thing again are we... ok so this stadium gets built in failsworth and first season in it we get promoted to championship where does your theory fall then???then say we do a peterborough and go up again....what will you be predicting then...oh hang on,,yeah the bubble will burst and we have increased our capacity when we are on another downward spiral...i can just see it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 These are the crowds given by the official site for the games against QPR and Blackpool when the capacity was 13500.... That leaves around 1400 spare seats, these were not down to segregation? The QPR game there was no segregation apart from the Big Moat, we didnt even have the JD sports carpets down the seats and against Blackpool they had the whole stand so again no seats were cut off for segregation. We simply didnt sell out against these teams... QPR Fans were moaning for days after our game as we didnt give them the small bit of the RRE and then we didnt sell out the seats in there.. Blackpool was not a sell out either. I understand that for some reason you are not allowed to sell the whole capacity (5%of capacity = 675 seats at the time) on all ticket games but the fact is the crowds were what they where because we didnt sell our own tickets. Infact Blackpool was worse than the QPR game as they sold out the whole RRE for us leaving only 9000 home seats to sell. We only actually sold around 7600 home tickets Yes, but that is not my point. My point was that in a 12000 seater ground, more than what you stated would have been locked out, because in a 12000 seater ground, the capacity is actually less than 12000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 ok so this stadium gets built in Failsworth and first season in it we get promoted to championship where does your theory fall then???then say we do a Peterborough and go up again....what will you be predicting then... Your statement is based on our ability to get promoted. Which under the present financial circumstances is a bit of an issue. As previously mentioned, a few 5-a-side pitches around a Failsworth stadium isn't the difference needed to crack on with your campaign as outlined above. I'm afraid football is a money game now more than ever - especially if you're a club like ours in the state we're in and you're gunning for success (promotion/consolidation/promotion is success by the way - play-off semis and a third round tie at Everton is not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowl Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The capacity of the new ground will be closer to 1OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyPimp Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The capacity of the new ground will be closer to 1OK. Is this a fact or guesswork? By the way, are you related to Dish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 By the way, are you related to Dish? Bwahahahaha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 that season we went up was the last for standing,season after it was all seater,this probably had a bearing on crowd size. as we all know those fantstic years of cup runs and promotion was packed out most games,but the official figures no doubt heavily massaged. were not doing this capacity hokey cokey thing again are we... ok so this stadium gets built in failsworth and first season in it we get promoted to championship where does your theory fall then???then say we do a peterborough and go up again....what will you be predicting then...oh hang on,,yeah the bubble will burst and we have increased our capacity when we are on another downward spiral...i can just see it now. We won't do a Peterborough. It isn't in the plan. If the plan was to do a Peterborough, there would be a Championship-level capacity being proposed in the first place. The fact that there isn't indicates that there is no serious intention of getting out of this division and staying out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (promotion/consolidation/promotion is success by the way - play-off semis and a third round tie at Everton is not) Nor are a few top ten finishes progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F.O.B. Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 A lot of what you say would be true.....if you simply ignore what a vastly more sell able product the premiership is now... I can imagine latics getting 17 to 25 in the prem depending on the occasion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Not took them long to develop then has it? Well it has actually, as they have had a two sided ground for a fair few years and when the latest stand is finished will still only have 3 sides. Looking at the average crowd stats for Blackpool is interesting...... League 1 2002/3 6992 League 1 2003/4 6326 League 1 2004/5 6031 League 1 2005/6 5819 League 1 2006/7 6876 Promotion season Champ 2007/8 8860 Champ 2008/9 7863 Champ 2009.. 8410 This season The crowds were in steady decline during the seasons leading up to the promotion campaign where the average jumped up by about 1000 probably based on the undefeated run during the last dozen or so games. The first season in the championship saw an increase of 2000 but they struggled to compete and the following season the average had dropped by 1000. They have started well this season with only 1 defeat in the league and the crowd is up by 600 from last season bearing in mind they have already played Newcastle at home where they achieved the present capacity. What I'm trying to say is ......even in a new stadium with good facilities the crowds, at our level, will still be almost totally influenced by the performance of the team and very little else. If we move to Failsworth we may see an initial boost in attendances, but, if we remain in this division, (with it's lack of northern clubs) and show no real intent to progress I fear the crowds will continue to fall away. I reckon TTA will want out fairly quickly after our relocation and unless they can find a buyer who will commit to major investment over the next few years I can't see a real future for the club. Seriously..............If you wanted to buy a football club with potential for reasonable success, why the hell would you choose a club who reside within 5 miles of the two richest premiership clubs in England. For this reason, I really can't see any way that TTA will be able to sell the football club. In the short term a move to Failsworth will give the club a bit of a boost but long term I really, really, fear for the clubs survival. Re-development or a move is absolutely vital for the future of this club but I feel a move to Failsworth will be an absolute disaster!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirinclassic Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Re-development or a move is absolutely vital for the future of this club but I feel a move to Failsworth will be an absolute disaster!!!! No doubt about it. The owners of the club want a way out that will ensure they break even at least. They've said themselves that they want out, and don't blame them at all. Jailsworth, however, would in no way benefit or represent the borough of Oldham. T'would be the death knell of the club. BOIIIING! For who the bell tolls.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowl Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Is this a fact or guesswork? By the way, are you related to Dish? It's not guesswork, just trust me. Yes I am related to Dish actually haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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