The EU referendum - 23rd June

[opinions4u]

Why?

He doesn't play international football.

[ChaddySmoker]

He doesn't play international football.

Yet!

[leeslover]

Any such military agreement between countries needs political and diplomatic will. Do you really think NATO can be put in one box and the EU in another?

NATO predated the EEC by decades. It's 2 biggest contributors for decades where not in the EU. France wasn't properly in NATO. Turkey was. So I'll answer, "yes."

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

6 pages in and lots of clear, articulate reasoning about why to leave

 

vs

 

Very little such reasoning about why we should stay in. A few valid seeming points but mainly nudge, nudge, wink, wink nothingness.

 

This is why the remain campaign is in a bit of bother. There's nothing exciting out there about why we should stay in. That might be because the arguments for remaining are prosaic and practical, and therefore deathly dull.

 

I'm not a great enthusiast for staying. I suppose my main reason for voting in is a conservative one. The ones who want out, who are effectively proposing a very large change to extremely big ticket items such as our laws, our trade, our businesses, our governance structures, our defence and foreign policy, our taxation system and so on, aren't saying what comes next. (Politics fans will recall IDS before the general election declining to answer the qn of where the £12 bn of welfare cuts detailed in the Tory manifesto would come from.) What happens when all those things are contestable is a massive question, and failure to answer it or even to detail alternatives does not get my vote.

 

It's exciting to think of all the things that people hate about the EU ending overnight...the CAP, the CFP, the European Court of Justice, the European "Parliament", the undemocratic Commission, Ze Germans, the euro, Polish graduates doing useful things around middle class homes...but they aren't the fundamentals that Farage would have you believe they are.

 

Referendums in general are showing their flaws, one after the next. This one clearly has not led to the wide-ranging debate Farage and others claimed to want. It also won't settle the question once and for all, as Cameron has claimed it will. Is Farage going away if we remain? No chance. He'll go all Salmond on everyone, saying every chance he gets that 48% (or whatever) of people don't want to be governed from Europe, and therefore that the latest sausage directive is an afront to the rights fought for and won by our brave white boys on D-day.

 

If Cameron loses, he might go all Irish on everyone after another protracted renegotiation, and ask the question again.

 

One thing I'm enjoying about this referendum is the farmer's dilemma. He hates immigrants and foreigners and bureaucrats and all that. But then again he loves the subsidies. Intellectual torture for ruddy faced illiterates out there in the sticks.

[bigfatjoe1]

We joined the EU because it's growth rates outstripped anything else we could match. We wanted a piece of the action as our economy continued to flag. We were getting desperate. Generally, it has worked because it has had high growth rates and the big German economy at the centre. Deindustrialisation was an inevitable consequence of our own outdated industry and globalisation. Global competition is even more intense. To compete, you either have the EU for added protection or you become a low skill, low wage, low tax economy. China has subsidized and mass produced cheap steel on a massive scale. They've flooded the market. But hey, let's leave the EU and then we can compete with these emerging economies....can't we.......

 

I have to say, though, any policy that has the support of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin has to be obviously really sensible and attractive.......

[blueatheart]

We joined the EU because it's growth rates outstripped anything else we could match.

Fallacy.

[leeslover]

We joined the EU because it's growth rates outstripped anything else we could match. We wanted a piece of the action as our economy continued to flag. We were getting desperate. Generally, it has worked because it has had high growth rates and the big German economy at the centre. Deindustrialisation was an inevitable consequence of our own outdated industry and globalisation. Global competition is even more intense. To compete, you either have the EU for added protection or you become a low skill, low wage, low tax economy. China has subsidized and mass produced cheap steel on a massive scale. They've flooded the market. But hey, let's leave the EU and then we can compete with these emerging economies....can't we.......

 

I have to say, though, any policy that has the support of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin has to be obviously really sensible and attractive.......

The Eurozone hasn't grown since 2006. Why do you think so many of them want to come and work here? India and China's economies have doubled in the same time. The EU is the only part of the world which is stagnating. The protection you speak of is the gradual slide into mass youth unemployment and irrelevance.

[Lags]

As a self employed person working in the EU for me the benefits of free trade and the right of movement through out for out weighs leaving. Europe as a continent has seen lots of troubles through isolated self thinking countries in history, since coming together (granted prior the EU) Europe and Britain in the main have prospered. Our standard of living and life have increased 10 fold, why now think we were better off before and leave?. It's a massive stay for me.

[piglinbland]

The trouble with Britain is we don't actually produce many goods anymore. Aside from some very clever techie stuff we've become a nation of tertiary workers and a tax haven. Expect hefty price rises (and wage freezes) and an even greater disparity in wealth between the North and South if we leave the EU. France, on the other hand has just won a contract for 10 years work at St. Nazaire - in the shape of four giant cruise liners

and car manufacturer PSA has recorded +7.5% increase in sales for March. Sure, the economy in Europe is shaky, but it's not as bleak as is portrayed in the Anglo-saxon press.

 

Britain is, by necessity, an innovative and resourceful nation with much in the way of economic pragmatism to offer the Europeans. Sadly, Europe is now preparing itself, almost with relief, for the possibility that Britain will cast herself adrift.

And I'm still struggling to grasp by which means the people of Oldham, Manchester, Burnley or Hull would be better off?

[JoshOWTB]

In. I haven't read one decent argument for leaving. Rather not give the Tories more power. The EU has done a lot of exceptionally good things in the past and will continue to do so. Our economy is :censored:ed if we leave, it's dependent on the European free market. Any new agreements will take decades to sort out - why risk a decade of recession.

[mcfluff1985]

In. I haven't read one decent argument for leaving. Rather not give the Tories more power. The EU has done a lot of exceptionally good things in the past and will continue to do so. Our economy is :censored:ed if we leave, it's dependent on the European free market. Any new agreements will take decades to sort out - why risk a decade of recession.

I haven't heard a decent one for staying

[NewBlue]

Tim Dieng wouldn't get a work permit.

Read the other day that they'd most likely make exceptions in the case of footballers. 'Watering down' rules in the same way Switzerland and Norway have. To what level that would reach is anybody's bet.

[leeslover]

In. I haven't read one decent argument for leaving. Rather not give the Tories more power. The EU has done a lot of exceptionally good things in the past and will continue to do so. Our economy is :censored:ed if we leave, it's dependent on the European free market. Any new agreements will take decades to sort out - why risk a decade of recession.

The UK has the right to trade with the EU as an EFTA member. Even if we had no such rights we would trade anyway. Mayalsia and Brazil trade with French companies. What are you so scared about?

[opinions4u]

I still see the quoting of outcomes on both sides without any explanation as to how staying in or getting out would lead to stated outcome.

 

It's a poor show by both sides.

 

My instinct remains out. My fear of a short term economic blip could convince me to vote against my instincts. But it's getting less likely by the day.

[singe]

I have not decided, like many, I want to know more facts.

Those saying they want to leave as it will save £8bn, miss two crucial points.

1) Opponents are not counting consequential benefits, like more jobs.

2) The 8bn saving needs to be put in context. Total GDP is 1.3 trillion, or 0.62 percent. For the average salary person, proportionately it would mean a saving of £10 per month. THat's not how much it would save, just shrinking the total GDP to an average salary.

[singe]

Worth keeping an eye on,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=56dd88fd3e00008f862acbd1%26Which%20figures%20for%20the%20UK%20contribution%20to%20EU%20Budget%20should%20we%20use%3F%26&ns_fee=0#post_56dd88fd3e00008f862acbd1

[piglinbland]

"The UK has the right to trade with the EU as an EFTA member. Even if we had no such rights we would trade anyway. Mayalsia and Brazil trade with French companies. What are you so scared about?"

 

Yes, we can trade with anyone but for goods entering and leaving the EU there are considerable tarifs to pay and formalities to observe. The small furniture factory in Leeds which exports a dozen lounge suites to Australia will invariably transit via Europe where he will take advantage of the aforementioned 'Rotterdam effect', in other words, infrastructure. A Brexit will deprive small to medium businesses of that opportunity.

Edited April 9, 2016 by piglinbland

[Buckshawlatic]

 

Ah the tories...do you seriously believe they would spend any extra money where it's most needed? They'll update Trident cos that's really really vital to the wellbeing of the British people, :censored: giving doctors a decent wage eh?

When you have countries like North Korea actively looking to achieve nuclear capability I will take Trident over a junior doctor (of whom I know several) anyday

[Latics_Fanatic]

When you have countries like North Korea actively looking to achieve nuclear capability I will take Trident over a junior doctor (of whom I know several) anyday

North Korea, good one...

[Yard Dog]

As these two say, let's do things our own way.

 

https://youtu.be/VuKEjyERl14

[blueatheart]

In. I haven't read one decent argument for leaving. Rather not give the Tories more power.

This pisses me right off. The Scottish used the same argument during their indyref. You do know there is an election in 2020 where another party could come to power don't you?

 

This short term thinking is a big problem, this decision has very little impact on the short term, up to the next three/four years and we won't have exited the EU by then if we do vote out. Another general election will be upon us by the time we exit.

 

This is a decision for the medium and long term and is much more than 'those wankers the tories are in at the moment so I'm saying no'. It's who will be governing in 2025 and 2035 if you are so narrow minded to only consider who is ruling.

[China]

I opened this thread expecting a load of ignorant bull:censored: (no offence) but I've been impressed by the points made, it's been a good read. Personally I'm voting to remain as I want our kids and grandkids to have the same opportunities to live and work across the continent as every other European, I also fear a Brexit (stupid word) would lead to so much uncertainty that people will move their money into more secure places within the EU, I just don't see anything to gain by pulling out of the world's biggest trading block where we export 51% of our goods to.

[Matt]

I opened this thread expecting a load of ignorant bull:censored:`

 

It's pretty cool around here these days, years of getting it wrong help to get it right. I think.

[forever blue]

Me and my wife voted for the common market because at that time we thought it would be good for Britain and good for our children. What we didn't envisage is what has transpired since. The EU has now become a monster hell bent on a NEW WORLD ORDER.Look at the unemployment figures particularly amongst the youth in other EU countries. Think back to Cyprus and the raid by the EU on their bank accounts. These people will stop at nothing to achieve their aim. What the hell has Turkey to do with the EU. The governments are mere puppets in the hands of the big corporations and are subservient to them .You now have one last chance do your own research and remember you are not just voting for yourself but for the identity of Britain and for future generations.

[jimsleftfoot]

Now this is the typical incorrect logic that really winds me up!

Its saying dont vote based on the pros and cons of the body that we are voting on-vote on the pros and cons of another seperate body

Rubbish summary mate. I was supporting the notion that the EU is at least partly responsible for peace in Europe and not just NATO as a seperate organisation.