The EU referendum - 23rd June

[piglinbland]

I've tried to traipse through at least some of 421 pages of 'Flexcit' and the further I get into the details, the more it appears to paraphrase the legal documents I posted weeks ago.

 

But basically, the so-called '6 phase withdrawal' is gobbledygook, or rather, translates as follows-

 

1/ - Leave. But sort of stay in. Or is that stay in but start leaving?

- 'Repatriate the entire body of EU law'. One day, if we have time, we might even get round to altering some of it. But in the meantime, we'll plagiarise EU law - it'll be easy, nobody will notice and we'll still be heralded for championing Brexit!

 

2/ - Renege on all or any humanitarian/human rights agreements.

 

3/ - Create a 'European village' as proposed by Winston Churchill in 1948 (and again in 1950).

 

4/ - Think of some ideas of our own - 'Simultaneously, we identify and explore some key areas where independent policy development is required, in phase 4 we make a start on the work eventually leading to divergence from the EU and the emergence of unique UK policies...'

 

5/ - We find some new trading partners - 'the way is now open for the UK to break out of the EU cul-de-sac and rejoin the world'

 

6/ - Pass laws as outlined by myself, Richard A.E. North in a grubby little right-wing pamphlet (£5) so that parliament can never again hand over our power to an 'alien entity'.

Magnificent!

.

Edited June 13, 2016 by piglinbland

[frizzell54]

It was posted to give people an opportunity to view/read and form their own opinion.

Thanks for sharing yours.

Edited June 12, 2016 by frizzell54

[piglinbland]

 

It was posted to give people an opportunity to view/read and form their own opinion.

Thanks for sharing yours.

 

 

You're welcome.

 

You provided the plan I asked for, so it was the least I could do to attempt to digest it..

[jimsleftfoot]

Does anyone think this whole thing is a massive waste of public money. As Cameron tries to appease people in the Tory party who have been squabbling about Europe for the last 30 years and in some cases people are using this to drive tgeir own personal agendas.

 

Brexit is based on a grievance no plan whatsoever to improve Britain.

 

Yes - My feeling is that Cameron didn't want it but put it on the table to appease his own party, in the belief that they wouldn't get a majority and any party sharing power would veto it straight away.

[GlossopLatic]

 

Yes - My feeling is that Cameron didn't want it but put it on the table to appease his own party, in the belief that they wouldn't get a majority and any party sharing power would veto it straight away.

The funny thing is the people who are most anti EU will be the ones to lose out the most. It's hardly likely that places like Oldham will suddenly improve due to leaving the EU.

 

http://infacts.org/uks-regions-brexiting-foot/

 

http://infacts.org/mythbusts/eu-immigrants-arent-taking-brits-jobs/

Edited June 14, 2016 by GlossopLatic

[GlossopLatic]

 

Yes - My feeling is that Cameron didn't want it but put it on the table to appease his own party, in the belief that they wouldn't get a majority and any party sharing power would veto it straight away.

What the Tories realised when they gave Cameron the gig is that he's a comparative centrist and could take the centre ground like Tony Blair before him therefore taking the country. Once Labour work this out and replace Corbyn with Dan Jarvis they will probably get back in power. Edited June 14, 2016 by GlossopLatic

[leeslover]

What the Tories realised when they gave Cameron the gig is that he's a comparative centrist and could take the centre ground like Tony Blair before him therefore taking the country. Once Labour work this out and replace Corbyn with Dan Jarvis they will probably get back in power.

I don't think that's exactly right. He was meant be be free market(ish) and Eurosceptic but without the tinges of bigotry (for example, he's massively increased support from gay and ethnic minorities). He's gone full Blair to take advantage of Corbyn.

[beag_teeets]

Like Blair Cameron won from the centre right and moved further right.

[leeslover]

Like Blair Cameron won from the centre right and moved further right.

Really? Gay marriage, subsidising magical energy machines, much higher minimum wage, guaranteed highest foreign aid budget in the world, increasing government spending.

[piglinbland]

...and fairies at the bottom of the garden.

[leeslover]

...and fairies at the bottom of the garden.

The ones making the electricity? I mentioned them.

 

I don't like Cameron or much of his government for my own reasons but any serious discussion of them would accept that the things I listed happened and are not the stuff of a classical right wing party

[beag_teeets]

Really? Gay marriage, subsidising magical energy machines, much higher minimum wage, guaranteed highest foreign aid budget in the world, increasing government spending.

 

Window dressing. Without wishing to derail the thread, cutting disability living allowance, cutting top rate of tax, ramping up student tuition fees, not intervening in failing employers, privatising NHS and academisation are right wing policies.

 

And can't resist, magical energy machines? Give it about 10-15 years and I bet the renewable sector has left the carbon and nuclear sectors way behind. Look at the device you are using to have this conversation, look at its history and development path. The rate of progress of new technologies is scary and wondrous.

 

And can't resist again, "increasing government spending"? Where? Increasing government debt I'd have you, but spending, nah.

[oafcmetty]

 

And can't resist, magical energy machines? Give it about 10-15 years and I bet the renewable sector has left the carbon and nuclear sectors way behind. Look at the device you are using to have this conversation, look at its history and development path. The rate of progress of new technologies is scary and wondrous.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-13/we-ve-almost-reached-peak-fossil-fuels-for-electricity

[beag_teeets]

Not forgetting:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/norway-to-ban-the-sale-of-all-fossil-fuel-based-cars-by-2025-and-replace-with-electric-vehicles-a7065616.html

[leeslover]

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-13/we-ve-almost-reached-peak-fossil-fuels-for-electricity

That's a fascinating report. It thinks that Chinese energy comes from renewable. No, nearly all the energy powering heavy industry exported from the UK, and most of the battery powered cars over there, are powered by dirty coal. It's also odd that they point out that carbon plants working inefficiently waiting for the wind to drop shows carbon sources in a bad light.

 

I'll be delighted when renewable sources can pay their way and are cheaper than carbon. It won't happen any the sooner for the government subsidising any old :censored:. Let people step up and make the technology.

 

 

PS I miss TGOBM telling me about Peak Oil. It's half the price it was then.

Edited June 14, 2016 by leeslover

[beag_teeets]

Yes, let the people make the technology, nothing good ever comes from public investment.

 

Like the microchip, the internet, touchscreens, many vaccines...

[leeslover]

Yes, let the people make the technology, nothing good ever comes from public investment.

 

Like the microchip, the internet, touchscreens, many vaccines...

Yes, yes, the machine I am holding exists because of public investment. But we digress.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Vote Brexit and the nation's politics will be a fairly unedifying series of screams in the dark from Johnson's Tories and Corbyn's Labour. They're both alright in their own ways - and popular among certain groups. They're also both idiots, surrounded by unsavoury characters whom no one sensible wants near the top of the public political discourse. I can see a day when I'll pine for the moderation of Cameron and Osborne v. Miliband and Balls.

[Crusoe]

I know it's probably far too late and it wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway, but (while I don't always like what he says) A A Gill summed it up for me:

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopl5u

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I know it's probably far too late and it wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway, but (while I don't always like what he says) A A Gill summed it up for me:

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopl5u

 

Yep. I agree with all of that. The idea that we will still participate in European culture while being out of the EU is far-fetched. We're heading towards compulsory morris-dancing and Top Gear values, where people who like works of art, restaurants, books, films, music, rave and sex are massively hated.

[leeslover]

If Brexit meant compulsory morris dancing I'd be manning the barricades with Peter Mandleson and Richard Branson.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

I'm still enjoying the farmers' and fishermen's dilemma. Out and they're :censored:ed by Europe. In and they're :censored:ed, but at least :censored:ed by themselves. And they hate foreigners. Not easy working that one out, even if you've got six fingers or smell of fish :censored:.

Edited June 15, 2016 by 24hoursfromtulsehill

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

It looks like this is the end of Osborne and Cameron, whether we stay or leave. There'll be enough Tories out for revenge to make that 12 majority disappear and then some.

 

The question for Labour voters down the ages has been which Tory bastard you hate least. I think I hate May least but she might be out as well after her canny no-show in this campaign.

[frizzell54]

Comment in today’s Guardian re: PM’s Question Time:

Talking of arses, parliament was full of them today toadying up to Dave feeding him stories about how a company in their constituency is going to move to the EU.

Maybe they haven't noticed, a lot already have.

Someone posted this here yesterday:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

The EU, good for Britain, good for British jobs.

[al_bro]

 

Comment in today’s Guardian re: PM’s Question Time:

Talking of arses, parliament was full of them today toadying up to Dave feeding him stories about how a company in their constituency is going to move to the EU.

Maybe they haven't noticed, a lot already have.

Someone posted this here yesterday:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

The EU, good for Britain, good for British jobs.

 

I wasn't aware of all those factories moving out of the UK with EU help. Just shows how much better off we are in the (reformed) EU doesn't it. I wonder how many have moved from the EU to the UK with EU money. I could guess at a big fat zero.