deyres42 Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, Andy b said: Might you consider what the purpose of the protest is? It’s not to get media attention it’s to get the owners to sell. They have seemingly made the first move towards that and, to that end, the protests have been effective thus far. Whether he sells is a different matter and if he doesn’t then fans regroup and go again. It’s not over. nothing has been undermined Fair points. The supporter groups on the pod didn’t give the impression much if any progress has been made on that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 The fans don’t want the club to drop out of the league which is exactly where we were heading before Shez came in. IMO The fans returning , myself included is totally understandable. If the extra support the fans have given to Shez and the club keeps us in the football league it will have been well worth it……it doesn’t change anything regarding the ownership and I’m pretty sure a dire uptake of ST sales for next season will reflect that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 33 minutes ago, deyres42 said: Protests been completely undermined, nobody looking from the outside could take it seriously now. "Yeah, we stopped for a bit cos they appointed a manager we like but we are going to start it up again, any chance of covering it on your station?" "Erm, we'll get back to you on that" You didn’t answer my question? Where are fans deluding themselves about what we can achieve? And secondly- how can you be both easily pacified and have delusions of grandeur? Your argurment so far, seems to be ‘cos they are.’ Mmm- cool story. As for the protests- you’re now having mythical conversations with a radio station you’ve invented inside your head. I leave that there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, League one forever said: You didn’t answer my question? Where are fans deluding themselves about what we can achieve? And secondly- how can you be both easily pacified and have delusions of grandeur? Your argurment so far, seems to be ‘cos they are.’ Mmm- cool story. As for the protests- you’re now having mythical conversations with a radio station you’ve invented inside your head. I leave that there. Where? Social media and such like. For much of the recent past. Many of those same voices have been pacified, how else do you explain the huge rise in attendance for the Rochdale match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, deyres42 said: Where? Social media and such like. For much of the recent past. Many of those same voices have been pacified, how else do you explain the huge rise in attendance for the Rochdale match? You’re shifting the argument again. You’re now talking about- going or not going. Lots weren’t going for all the reasons we know, then a club legend returned and now they have decided to get behind him and by proxy the players. It’s not difficult. That’s got nothing to do with being pacified, which would mean all is forgiven and we’re turning up blind to the bigger picture. Delusios of grandeur on social media? All I’ve seen is people saying we’ve got a chance of staying up. Pre Shez- it all was doom and gloom. So. . We’ve gone from- We’re screwed. . . to . . we’ve got a chance. No delusion there, just fair assessment of where we were and now are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, League one forever said: You’re shifting the argument again. You’re now talking about- going or not going. Lots weren’t going for all the reasons we know, then a club legend returned and now they have decided to get behind him and by proxy the players. It’s not difficult. That’s got nothing to do with being pacified, which would mean all is forgiven and we’re turning up blind to the bigger picture. Delusios of grandeur on social media? All I’ve seen is people saying we’ve got a chance of staying up. Pre Shez- it all was doom and gloom. So. . We’ve gone from- We’re screwed. . . to . . we’ve got a chance. No delusion there, just fair assessment of where we were and now are. Plenty of those people made clear they were never stepping foot in the place again whilst the Lemsagams were around, if it looks like pacification... Delusion is probably not the right term, I'd say it is more a sense of entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, deyres42 said: Plenty of those people made clear they were never stepping foot in the place again whilst the Lemsagams were around, if it looks like pacification... Delusion is probably not the right term, I'd say it is more a sense of entitlement. I agree with your takes. ”We want Lemsagam out” only got sung after we were on the end of a good hiding… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, deyres42 said: Plenty of those people made clear they were never stepping foot in the place again whilst the Lemsagams were around, if it looks like pacification... Delusion is probably not the right term, I'd say it is more a sense of entitlement. So- You’re saying that fans with entrenched views have become blinkered/forgetful/pacified to the bigger picture because they appointed Shez. Further, that those same fans now think we are entitled to stay up? Here’s what I think. I think people were desperate, angry and wanted some hope before returning. The only way that looked like happening was ALMO leaving. Then circumstances changed, the owners publicly said they are looking to sell, and a club legend returned. The only man to save from relegation twice previously. People are now willing to get behind the manager and the players, because the situation is very different. The situation is very likely to change again in the summer, and guess what people will shift their focus again. . . . meanwhile you’re holding people to a fixed point of view, without taking the circumstantial differences into account, claiming they’re two diametrically opposed at the same time; and then making things up about what will happen in the future on a mythical radio station. Ookaaaay. Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ryan said: I agree with your takes. ”We want Lemsagam out” only got sung after we were on the end of a good hiding… . . and before Shez turned up. . . . and before the owners said for the first publicly they’re selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, League one forever said: . . and before Shez turned up. . . . and before the owners said for the first publicly they’re selling. If the main grievance is with the ownership I don’t see how either of these events have significantly changed the picture. A ) A change of manager is a footballing matter. Most of the fanbase agreed that all of the protesting transcended what was happening on the field. As an example, see the outraged reaction to Adam’s comments on TS - “He’s so out of touch. Doesn’t he realise this isn’t about the results? How is somebody so naive a director?” (paraphrased, of course). B ) They’re both still here, aren’t they? An intention to sell at such an early stage is effectively meaningless. Very few people are privy to the terms of sale, how seriously it’s being sought, how realistic their terms are etc etc. It took Allam at Hull nearly a decade to offload them after promising to be out of the door within 24 hours… A couple of good results and the entire movement, and the animosity fuelling it, are placated. I don’t see how this is trolling. It’s a fair assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 6 hours ago, League one forever said: So- You’re saying that fans with entrenched views have become blinkered/forgetful/pacified to the bigger picture because they appointed Shez. Further, that those same fans now think we are entitled to stay up? Here’s what I think. I think people were desperate, angry and wanted some hope before returning. The only way that looked like happening was ALMO leaving. Then circumstances changed, the owners publicly said they are looking to sell, and a club legend returned. The only man to save from relegation twice previously. People are now willing to get behind the manager and the players, because the situation is very different. The situation is very likely to change again in the summer, and guess what people will shift their focus again. . . . meanwhile you’re holding people to a fixed point of view, without taking the circumstantial differences into account, claiming they’re two diametrically opposed at the same time; and then making things up about what will happen in the future on a mythical radio station. Ookaaaay. Night. No, the sense of entitlement is more a general thing, an inflated sense of our status if you like. People should do what's right for them, no problem with that but let's have it right, the protest movement now has a serious lack of credibility moving forward, I'd go as far to say it is dead in the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 6 hours ago, Ryan said: I agree with your takes. ”We want Lemsagam out” only got sung after we were on the end of a good hiding… It aired at Colchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 7 hours ago, League one forever said: . . . meanwhile you’re holding people to a fixed point of view, without taking the circumstantial differences into account, claiming they’re two diametrically opposed at the same time; and then making things up about what will happen in the future on a mythical radio station. Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, deyres42 said: No, the sense of entitlement is more a general thing, an inflated sense of our status if you like. People should do what's right for them, no problem with that but let's have it right, the protest movement now has a serious lack of credibility moving forward, I'd go as far to say it is dead in the water. What you seem to be doing (deliberately or otherwise) is conflating anyone saying that we are a club with history and potential with an entitlement to be higher up the leagues. No one should seriously say we're entitled to be in league 1 or the championship, but there is definitely an argument to say the club has the stature and fan base to sit higher than 23rd in league 2. Could you quote or screenshot examples of fans entitlment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 7 hours ago, Ryan said: If the main grievance is with the ownership I don’t see how either of these events have significantly changed the picture. A ) A change of manager is a footballing matter. Most of the fanbase agreed that all of the protesting transcended what was happening on the field. As an example, see the outraged reaction to Adam’s comments on TS - “He’s so out of touch. Doesn’t he realise this isn’t about the results? How is somebody so naive a director?” (paraphrased, of course). B ) They’re both still here, aren’t they? An intention to sell at such an early stage is effectively meaningless. Very few people are privy to the terms of sale, how seriously it’s being sought, how realistic their terms are etc etc. It took Allam at Hull nearly a decade to offload them after promising to be out of the door within 24 hours… A couple of good results and the entire movement, and the animosity fuelling it, are placated. I don’t see how this is trolling. It’s a fair assessment. My take on what happened, is that there was a decline of the club's results on the pitch (after years of stagnation) coupled with a decline of the club's reputation due to how it dealt with players, staff and fans. And that the entire blame for this sat with the Lemsagams. (There is blame elsewhere eg with Blitz and the land etc, but I'm purely talking about things in the Lemsagams direct control) Their meddling in team affairs and their culture of treating people awfully was causing this. And it got so bad, we were down to hardly any fans and we were adrift at the bottom of the table and staring at non-league. Two things changed... firstly they accepted that it wasn't working and they put the club up for sale. Secondly they appointed Shez and let him get on with it. Granted the sale doesn't seem to be moving much, but I think it's fair to say that if they weren't leaving Shez to it then he would be vocal about it and possibly quit. He wouldn't just suffer in silence like Curle or Selim - it was more than just a footballing appointment. No other appointment at that stage would have had the same effect with the fans. It felt like one of us was on the touchline, and one of us was giving interviews. It meant we could believe what was being said about the playing side, rather than wondering if we're just being told what Mo wants us to hear. As the organisations with the biggest number of fan members, PTB and OASF then had a choice to make - what do they do with regard to the protests? I'm not that well versed on Blackpool's fortunes, but were they faced with relegation during their boycotts? Let alone relegation to non league? Going into non league could mean not being back in the league for years, it's so much more devastating than dropping from league 1 to league 2. The general feeling among the fans seemed to be that Shez and the team should be backed temporarily so between Shez, the players and the fans we gave the club the best chance of staying up. And lets remember, the tickets were sold for Rochdale before results changed. So it wasn't suddenly a few wins that changed things, it was a sense of collective responsibility to do what we could as fans to help the club stay up - which was and still is absolutely priorty number 1. Should we stay up, what happens next lies with the Lemsagams. And I'm sure OASF and PTB will do exactly what they have always done - take their cue from what the fans want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, nzlatic said: What you seem to be doing (deliberately or otherwise) is conflating anyone saying that we are a club with history and potential with an entitlement to be higher up the leagues. No one should seriously say we're entitled to be in league 1 or the championship, but there is definitely an argument to say the club has the stature and fan base to sit higher than 23rd in league 2. Could you quote or screenshot examples of fans entitlment? You and anyone else can interpret it however you like, no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 9 hours ago, Ryan said: If the main grievance is with the ownership I don’t see how either of these events have significantly changed the picture. A ) A change of manager is a footballing matter. Most of the fanbase agreed that all of the protesting transcended what was happening on the field. As an example, see the outraged reaction to Adam’s comments on TS - “He’s so out of touch. Doesn’t he realise this isn’t about the results? How is somebody so naive a director?” (paraphrased, of course). B ) They’re both still here, aren’t they? An intention to sell at such an early stage is effectively meaningless. Very few people are privy to the terms of sale, how seriously it’s being sought, how realistic their terms are etc etc. It took Allam at Hull nearly a decade to offload them after promising to be out of the door within 24 hours… A couple of good results and the entire movement, and the animosity fuelling it, are placated. I don’t see how this is trolling. It’s a fair assessment. Good post. Both fair points. I see it as a ‘truce’ of sorts. . until if/when we stay up. Then if/when Shez goes, and we fall back to how we were it will all start up again. It’s similar at Everton, we want moshiri out. Appoint lamps- dies down. If he doesn’t get results it will start up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, deyres42 said: You and anyone else can interpret it however you like, no problem. Like I've said previously, I don't mind being proved wrong. It's just all I can see on here and twitter is you talking about fans sense of entitlement but never in response to someone actually showing any sense of entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, nzlatic said: Like I've said previously, I don't mind being proved wrong. It's just all I can see on here and twitter is you talking about fans sense of entitlement but never in response to someone actually showing any sense of entitlement. Fair enough. But if you don't believe in the premise of the point to begin with then you are never going to see it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 4 hours ago, deyres42 said: No, the sense of entitlement is more a general thing, an inflated sense of our status if you like. People should do what's right for them, no problem with that but let's have it right, the protest movement now has a serious lack of credibility moving forward, I'd go as far to say it is dead in the water. You always take the most anti populist fan view, it’s almost like you’re on the wind up. . . If the protests carried on when they appointed Shez and we started winning- you would be on here like greyhound, stating something like ‘you got what you wanted’ why carry on now? There is no lack of credibility whatsoever, because it’s a fluid situation that has and will continue to change. Fan groups can only react to what is happening, to take an entrenched non shifting position would be irrational and pointless. But as always- you know all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, deyres42 said: Fair enough. But if you don't believe in the premise of the point to begin with then you are never going to see it anyway. Using the same logic, you believe in the premise so will see it where it doesn't exist, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, nzlatic said: Using the same logic, you believe in the premise so will see it where it doesn't exist, surely? Potentially yes, I'll seek to do my best to avoid that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 52 minutes ago, League one forever said: You always take the most anti populist fan view, it’s almost like you’re on the wind up. . . If the protests carried on when they appointed Shez and we started winning- you would be on here like greyhound, stating something like ‘you got what you wanted’ why carry on now? There is no lack of credibility whatsoever, because it’s a fluid situation that has and will continue to change. Fan groups can only react to what is happening, to take an entrenched non shifting position would be irrational and pointless. But as always- you know all this. Not sure it is that fluid. The stated aim was to force the owner out of the club. That hasn't happened to date and doesn't appear to be imminent. The only tangible change has come in the dugout, something that the people driving this were vocally adamant was of no relevance to their intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 33 minutes ago, deyres42 said: Not sure it is that fluid. The stated aim was to force the owner out of the club. That hasn't happened to date and doesn't appear to be imminent. The only tangible change has come in the dugout, something that the people driving this were vocally adamant was of no relevance to their intentions. As you well know, no one can ‘force’ any owner out. Those are your words. My understanding is, it was their intention to put pressure on him to sell, which has been achieved by his public statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worcester Owl Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 16 hours ago, deyres42 said: I've seen and heard it suggested that protesting could start up again if and when league safety is secured, as though you can turn your anger and concerns on and off when it suits, ludicrous. It's far from ludicrous. You could not be more wrong, unless you really are posting these comments just as a windup. If Shez secures safety before the end of the season, I fully expect the protests to return, why would they not? He is supposedly aiming to retire at the end of the season, at which point I'm sure the anti-ALMO feeling will re-surface if there is no sign of a sale. Shez and the players will know the protests aren't aimed at them. Until we are safe we have to back the fight to stay up under a club legend 100%. It's really not difficult to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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