Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 So you can bandy around figures all you like, pretending that you're in the know while simultaneously admitting that you don't know any more than the rest of us, but all the while maintaining your self-appointed role as Guardian of the Faith? Personally, I'd changed your title to Chief Obfuscator. Don't know what you're getting at reeling off a whole load of clubs in widely differing circumstances. Some of them are little clubs that built little grounds and stayed where they were, or continued to decline as a result. Others are clubs that over-reached themselvs. Far from suggesteed we ought to emulate either type of club, I've questioned why we can't be more like Bolton, Preston or Burnley-clubs from similar towns to Oldham who managed to leave us standing. Firstly, I have never claimed to be in the know and I have challenged you previously to produce any evidence to the contrary. Unsurprisngly, I am still waiting. As for Guardian of the Faith and Chief Obfuscator, I haven't laughed as much for ages. As for the clubs I reeled off, well, Southampton had the Dell, capacity 15,000ish, became OVER ambitious and paid the price (See also Charlton) Millwall similar sized club to us, now worse off, despite Millions raised in share issues when it was the rage, Oxford, again similar sized club to us, now out of the league, Darlington, smaller than us, but over ambitious and not sustainable - result administration. Believe it or not there is a theme in there and it isn't good news. Build what is sustainable with options for further down the line is the way to go IMHO. We are not though and never have been the size of clubs like Bolton, Preston or Burnley. They have stronger traditions, higher fan bases than us. They were realistic based on their own circumstances at the time of their new gounds. Hang on a minute, Preston, well they have built their stadium 1 stand at a time on their current site over a 10 year or so period so thats not a new stadium is it? AND Burnley, where is their new stadium? A bit like Preston but they did 2 stands at 1 go about 7 or 8 years ago Both Burnley and Preston have walked before they could run. Good planning in my book. I think that Preston and Burnley aren't then a good comparison for your argument Corp, but there again........ Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie_Dugger Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've noticed a pattern to your interminable ramblings about your pet subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 :laught16: What surplus Stitch? There won't be enough to fund the full £20 million. Try working the figures out, not forgetting how much the owners have put in since 2003. Cheers, Harry Some how, I dont think the BP site will go for £20m. OK clever clogs, maybe help me work out the figures? Where was the funding to come from for the redevelopment of BP? Because to think that they were going to re-develop the stadium and build a hotel etc for £20M is ridiculous. There is no way that the £80M was broken down as £20M for 3 fancy stands, a hotel, 'banqueting facilities' etc with £60M to build 500(?) residential dwellings. Further, we now have more land to sell as we will instead be building on cheaper land.......land which is also to be subsidised from the council (who could also be subsidising the build cost?). The property crash goes a fair way to explaining the shortfall yes, but not one this massive, especially when also considering build costs being significantly cheaper. There is either a surplus, or the funding for the BP scheme was never in place. P.S I haven't forgotten how much the owners have put in, but are they here to do us a favour? Or are they hear to fulfil their rich man's ambition of owning a football club.....with the added bonus of making a nice butty at the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfOAFC Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 this thread is great fun if you read it bottom to top and play "guess the poster". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 There is either a surplus, or the funding for the BP scheme was never in place. It wasn't the idea was to get investment from others such as a hotel chain, building company and others. TTA stated their disappointment when this money wasn't forthcoming. Might've been naive of them to think it would but at no point did they say they had the cash upfront. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 OK clever clogs, maybe help me work out the figures? Where was the funding to come from for the redevelopment of BP? Because to think that they were going to re-develop the stadium and build a hotel etc for £20M is ridiculous. There is no way that the £80M was broken down as £20M for 3 fancy stands, a hotel, 'banqueting facilities' etc with £60M to build 500(?) residential dwellings. Further, we now have more land to sell as we will instead be building on cheaper land.......land which is also to be subsidised from the council (who could also be subsidising the build cost?). The property crash goes a fair way to explaining the shortfall yes, but not one this massive, especially when also considering build costs being significantly cheaper. There is either a surplus, or the funding for the BP scheme was never in place. P.S I haven't forgotten how much the owners have put in, but are they here to do us a favour? Or are they hear to fulfil their rich man's ambition of owning a football club.....with the added bonus of making a nice butty at the end? The club weren't putting up the money though. So it may have cost £80m for the build, but much of that came from private developers. The land itself was worth nowhere near as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 with the added bonus of making a nice butty at the end? I'm hungry now. What you mekkin'? Do me a nice roast ham and mustard, will you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 OK clever clogs, maybe help me work out the figures? Where was the funding to come from for the redevelopment of BP? Because to think that they were going to re-develop the stadium and build a hotel etc for £20M is ridiculous. There is no way that the £80M was broken down as £20M for 3 fancy stands, a hotel, 'banqueting facilities' etc with £60M to build 500(?) residential dwellings. Further, we now have more land to sell as we will instead be building on cheaper land.......land which is also to be subsidised from the council (who could also be subsidising the build cost?). The property crash goes a fair way to explaining the shortfall yes, but not one this massive, especially when also considering build costs being significantly cheaper. There is either a surplus, or the funding for the BP scheme was never in place. P.S I haven't forgotten how much the owners have put in, but are they here to do us a favour? Or are they hear to fulfil their rich man's ambition of owning a football club.....with the added bonus of making a nice butty at the end? I'm not going to start something like that on here. It would open a can of worms, especially with the Corp around. If you think this is a long thread, that 1 would run to at least 50 pages. However, how much extra land is now available at BP? Cheers, Harry P.S. Mind you this 1 might do yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 just seen Notts County parading Sven around there very good, decent sized stadium Then i think of us settling for a 12000 seater thing You can't compare Latics to Notts County. They're a far superior club, who won something just after the English Civil War. We're just lickle Oldham. Live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Yes, because that isn't going to end in a bloody great shambles, is it? Another form of excuse: sneer at clubs for showing ambition, declaring it a failure in advance. After all, we tried that once and look where it got us. Edited July 22, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 You can't compare Latics to Notts County. They're a far superior club, who won something just after the English Civil War. We're just lickle Oldham. Live with it. Fifth time of asking Jonesy. What size ground would you regard as showing ambition? I'll make it easier. Is it 1. 15000 - 18000 2. 18001 - 22000 3. 22001 - 27500 4. 27501 and above. Go on. Share your wisdom with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Similar towns to Oldham yes ..... similar in terms of football history? No. We've never been on the same page even in the days when we had managed to overtake Burnley / Preston in terms of league position. The Oldham inferiority complex continues. We've had this argument before (and it's me who's said to repeat himself.) What's relevant is not what those clubs won ninety years ago, but where they were compared to us in terms of league position, facilities, and average gates as recently as fifteen years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Fifth time of asking Jonesy. What size ground would you regard as showing ambition? I'll make it easier. Is it 1. 15000 - 18000 2. 18001 - 22000 3. 22001 - 27500 4. 27501 and above. Go on. Share your wisdom with us. I've answrere it. I said that the proposed capacity of the BP redevelopment was the least we should be aiming for. So it was pedantic soup for dinner then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Another form of excuse: sneer at clubs for showing ambition, declaring it a failure in advance. After all, we tried that once and look where it got us. I won't sneer at a fourth division club who pay Svennis £2m a year to be their director of football, I'll piss myself laughing at them. Or dear, I shat myself laughing as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 Lions Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Even over the past crap decade we've filled BP to its (former) near-14,000 capacity several times. Is even that modest ambition to be a thing of the past?) We've played 300+ league games at BP since being relegated from the Premiership. How many of these games have we actually filled, or near filled capacity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Fifth time of asking Jonesy. What size ground would you regard as showing ambition? I'll make it easier. Is it 1. 15000 - 18000 2. 18001 - 22000 3. 22001 - 27500 4. 27501 and above. Go on. Share your wisdom with us. I don't think he is going to answer. I do agree with quite a lot of what he is saying re: Ambition. I just think he is very easy to disagree with though!! Me personally...I think we should be building a 15,000 seater stadium, with the potential of upgrading to 20,000. Nothing too big there, and I think it shows a decent level of ambition for a club our size. I do think 12,000, whilst realistically it is big enough, it just seems like we are accepting where we are and accepting we belong here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've answrere it. I said that the proposed capacity of the BP redevelopment was the least we should be aiming for. So it was pedantic soup for dinner then? Hoo - bloody - rah! An answer. Why do I feel that if the club had said that you still would have moaned? And I don't want to go all Diego sideburns on you (sorry DS ) but asking for a straight answer isn't pedantry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 That doesn't even attempt to answer my question. You can show a club who built big, I'll show you one that went the other way, and we have proved nothing. I want you to show me the causal link that will lead from us constructing a smaller stadium that can be increased to a lack of future success, when it seems to me to be the other way around, as this plan is achievable and will financially benefit the club. Yes-but I've already said that I'd choose to emulate the successes and not the failures. Most people would. Isn't there such a thing as learning from the examples of others? Why can Bolton have a PL side and a 27000 capacity stadium and not Oldham? I know Bolton reasonably well and it isn't drastically different from Oldham. This plan, is actually unambitious and exists, like all the others, only on paper. We can only guess at what the outcome will be and my guess is as good as anybodys (and actually based on past experience, and observation of the experince of other clubs, instead of wishful thinking.) And the only clubs I can think of who significantly increase the capacities of their stadiums are those who are wildly successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 You talk a good game, but basically you're creating a position to argue against. A straw man if you will. The proposed capacity was exactly that - it was a suggestion that needed consideration. You seem to think it was a definite. I can't find anywhere a definite plan for the redevelopment. Well, it's been considered and they've changed it. Boo f****n' hoo.... Last one to post is a big girl... *D'oh!* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 On the other hand we have Bradford Leicester Southampton Coventry Charlton Hudds Derby All have had great sucess from investing in Big stadiums Learning from their mistakes and the successes of the likes of Bolton or Hull is completely out of the question, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I don't think he is going to answer. I do agree with quite a lot of what he is saying re: Ambition. I just think he is very easy to disagree with though!! Me personally...I think we should be building a 15,000 seater stadium, with the potential of upgrading to 20,000. Nothing too big there, and I think it shows a decent level of ambition for a club our size. I do think 12,000, whilst realistically it is big enough, it just seems like we are accepting where we are and accepting we belong here. It seems to me we can either spend the money trying to achieve success on the pitch, or we can spend it on LOOKING ambitious. The Corp seems like the sort of guy who thinks he will get a better deal in the knocking shop by spending half of his whoring budget on a flash new shirt to impress the brasses, when in fact he could have gone in a perfectly nice but less flash shirt and spent the cash on better looking and more numerous toms to do all manner of filthy turns for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Firstly, I have never claimed to be in the know and I have challenged you previously to produce any evidence to the contrary. Unsurprisngly, I am still waiting. As for Guardian of the Faith and Chief Obfuscator, I haven't laughed as much for ages. As for the clubs I reeled off, well, Southampton had the Dell, capacity 15,000ish, became OVER ambitious and paid the price (See also Charlton) Millwall similar sized club to us, now worse off, despite Millions raised in share issues when it was the rage, Oxford, again similar sized club to us, now out of the league, Darlington, smaller than us, but over ambitious and not sustainable - result administration. Believe it or not there is a theme in there and it isn't good news. Build what is sustainable with options for further down the line is the way to go IMHO. We are not though and never have been the size of clubs like Bolton, Preston or Burnley. They have stronger traditions, higher fan bases than us. They were realistic based on their own circumstances at the time of their new gounds. Hang on a minute, Preston, well they have built their stadium 1 stand at a time on their current site over a 10 year or so period so thats not a new stadium is it? AND Burnley, where is their new stadium? A bit like Preston but they did 2 stands at 1 go about 7 or 8 years ago Both Burnley and Preston have walked before they could run. Good planning in my book. I think that Preston and Burnley aren't then a good comparison for your argument Corp, but there again........ Cheers, Harry I'm glad I still have the ability to make you laugh, oh Wise One, although your approach to posting did have me fooled for a time (Harry makes his entrance wrapped in flag of The Final Word and armed with the Sword of Truth...) Burnley and Preston may not have new stadiums, but nor do they have either crumbling period pieces nor purpose built little lower division grounds. That's because they managed to generate the funds, when it mattered, to modernise-and without drastically reducing ground capacity. Why the inferiority complex regarding some of our Lancashire neighbours? They may have more illustrious histories, but from the sixtes onwards they became clubs which were, to all intents and purposes, like our own. In fact, only fifteen or so years ago we'd left them a long way behind. However, they revived themselves at the right time and we threw in the towel and reverted to looking at them with awe. Bigger fanbases perhaps they have, but they were getting half the crowds that were watching us in the early nineties. Their task was to rebuild their fanbases-ours was to consolidate our new one and build on it. They succeeded, we failed; but I'd say that the major reasons for that lie not with history but with decisions taken in more recent times and the relative competence of those running the respective clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
County boy Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hello soulless bowl Sadly, you're not the only ones on a collision course with a souless bowl. I think however both our club and yours have decided it's the only way forward. I'm sad to say they are probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakefield-oldham Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm glad we're fans of an ambitious club like Latics as opposed to over-reaching failures like Burnley. At least we manage to stay in our division. failures,,,,,,eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue_tak Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yes-but I've already said that I'd choose to emulate the successes and not the failures. Most people would. Isn't there such a thing as learning from the examples of others? Why can Bolton have a PL side and a 27000 capacity stadium and not Oldham? I know Bolton reasonably well and it isn't drastically different from Oldham. This plan, is actually unambitious and exists, like all the others, only on paper. We can only guess at what the outcome will be and my guess is as good as anybodys (and actually based on past experience, and observation of the experince of other clubs, instead of wishful thinking.) And the only clubs I can think of who significantly increase the capacities of their stadiums are those who are wildly successful. Metropolitan Borough of Bolton - Population 262,400 Metroploitan Borough of Oldham - Population 103,544 There's a good reason. Horwich - 5.8 miles from Bolton town centre. Failsworth - 4.2 miles from Oldham town centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.