Yard Dog Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 12,000 is ok as long as there's the option to increase the capacity IF (and it's a big big IF) we start to become a succesful Championship club and start averaging 10k plus week in week out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tindall Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 good idea i think LMFAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue_tak Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 good idea i think LMFAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) It needs to be recogonised that people are asking questions... Perfectly valid questions... Its healthy... My hope is that my "issues" with the project will be laid to rest other the coming months... But until then I will carry on asking the tough questions... and I am sure corp and others will too... Something has to counter act the blind butt licking faith being shown by some... It scares me that some people think the board are above question... That is really scary.... Edited July 22, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It needs to be recogonised that people are asking questions... Perfectly valid questions... Its healthy... My hope is that my "issues" with the project will be laid to rest other the coming months... But until then I will carry on asking the tough questions... I wasn't aware Jeremy Paxman was a member of this board........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Its a good point which troubled me... but to probably over-simplify it as you say.... the previous plan we sold say, 50% of the land (with the ground taking up the rest) at a very high market price to fund the expensive stadium rebuild.... now we are selling off 100% of the land at a cheap market price to fund cheap new stadium.... someone will always buy land at a good price... we just cant expect the returns of 18 months ago... I'm not an expert, but i'd imagine starting from scratch would be cheaper, no pissing around other building work/stands/half built hotels and doing stuff up... just a quick, mass prefab to save cash... Not going to echo any of the points over the last few pages.... need further info. All i can say was when I read the statement I was excited. Looks by far the most realistic thing to have been put forward, and the most realistic proposal for our club. Couldnt care less about the capacity, we need to fill the 12000 first before we worry about anything else... and if the TTA tell us that that is the realistic capacity they can afford with the budget available, that is fine with me... Has anyone else actually though the market value of BP could be restricting th capacity? it may be 12000 or nowt... I'm snatching your hand off for 12000.. brilliant news, lets hope everything goes to plan over the next couple of months... Whilst I can understand some of peoples concerns I don't quite see the reason for negativity at this stage. This is the 1st public announcement of the proposed project. Comments in the statement such as: - "Subject to Cabinet approval, Oldham Athletic will next commission architects to work up more comprehensive plans" "Talks are also still ongoing with the Pennine Acute Trust" "The recent confirmation that Metrolink is coming to the borough also makes this proposition highly attractive" "There will obviously be plenty of talking to be done with local residents and affected groups - some of which is already underway" Simon Corney added: "Much work remains to be done on the detail of these plans" "We feel very upbeat and positive having made more progress in the past six weeks or so than we previously did in as many years" "This new vision gives us an opportunity to provide a facility that will create new revenue streams to make the club financially viable and self-sustaining, whilst also giving supporters a superior matchday experience." I have highlighted certain parts of the extracts above for those who may not have read or interpreted the joint statement correctly. Much is still to come out over the coming months in the detail, but it is quite clear form the statement that the plans will include for other income streams to be generated from the new stadium, (as were proposed for a re-developed bp) to enable us to become self sufficient. IT IS IMPORTANT THEREFORE THAT WE SHOW A LITTLE MORE PATIENCE, AND WAIT TO SEE THE FULL DETAILS AS THEY EMERGE ONCE THE PLANS HAVE BEEN DRAWN UP, before going off half cocked on a message baord. Clearly there is much still to be done. The plans for the stadium need to be drawn up to start with and I understand that they will include for allowing for an expansion to 20,000 if required at some point in the future, unlike the redeveloped BP plans which would have been exceptionally hard to expand to 20K after the surrounding land was re-developed. 1 point worth noting on the capacity is this. New stadiums construction costs are generally costed on £'s per seat and vary from around £1000 to £1500 depending on facilities to be included. So to build the stadium at an extra 8,000 seats at the cheap end of the scale, would add £8 million to the costs. The extra income from filling those 8,000 seats per match (averaged net of vat and allowing for pensioners/concessions etc) = £104,000 per match, meaning that it would take a minimum of 72 sold out matches at 20,000 attendances just to pay off the cost and that doesn't include for any interest costs in the meantime. In effect that would be the 1st 4 years in the premiership having to all be sold out just to pay the cost of the extra 8,000 seats that we don't need at this moment in time. If we do ever reach the premiership again (Don't all be negative - who would have thought when JR was appointed in 1982 that we would get promoted) then the £8 million cost will pale into insignificance compared to the extra £40 million we will then recieve from extra TV money. As long as we have planning permission in place for the expansion, then properly planned construction works can carry on during the season without affecting capacity. Now is the time to get behind a scheme which (apart form the 6 months before BP finally recieved planning in December 2007) for the 1st time looks like something that is deliverable, and critically, the Council appear to be fully onside with. KEEP THE FAITH WITH THIS ONE. Cheers, Harry Edited July 22, 2009 by Harry Dowds Green Shirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It needs to be recogonised that people are asking questions... Perfectly valid questions... Its healthy... My hope is that my "issues" with the project will be laid to rest other the coming months... But until then I will carry on asking the tough questions... and I am sure corp and others will too... Something has to counter act the blind butt licking faith being shown by some... It scares me that some people think the board are above question... That is really scary.... It's a very good point. Some people are raising issues, perfectly valid ones, and getting shot down straight away. We only have one shot at this and it needs to be right. Once the stadium is built that it, its final. It's not like signing a player. We can't just go and get another if this one doesn't work. Personally, I think 12,000 would be too small. Showing a lack of ambition. 15,000 would be about right, with the potential to upgrade to 20,000. You have got to show potential investors and future players that we are an attractive proposition, and that we do have some ambition. I think 12,000 says that we are a league 1 club with league 1 ambitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 IT IS IMPORTANT THEREFORE THAT WE SHOW A LITTLE MORE PATIENCE, AND WAIT TO SEE THE FULL DETAILS AS THEY EMERGE ONCE THE PLANS HAVE BEEN DRAWN UP, BEFORE GOING OFF HALF COCKED ON A MESSAGE BOARD. KEEP THE FAITH WITH THIS ONE. Cheers, Harry Where's the fun in that? Are we expected to drum our fingers on our desks or get on with some work in the meantime? Messageboards are built on rumour, conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. They'd be rubbish otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Where's the fun in that? Are we expected to drum our fingers on our desks or get on with some work in the meantime? Messageboards are built on rumour, conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. They'd be rubbish otherwise. Apologies Zorro, I didn't mean to put the last aprt of that sentence in capitals. I'll edit it accordingly. Cheers, Harry P.S. Looks like me that went off half cocked with having to edit Edited July 22, 2009 by Harry Dowds Green Shirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The capitals are fine. No need to apologise to little old me. I just think that contrasting opinions, even baseless ones, are important for the success of any messageboard. It's all part of life's intricate tapestry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigfinLatic Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Where's the fun in that? Are we expected to drum our fingers on our desks or get on with some work in the meantime? Messageboards are built on rumour, conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. They'd be rubbish otherwise. Totally agree... but its great to get HDGS's opinion as it is always founded on the knowlege he really understands the logstics of ticketing and costs.... I dont mind any of the questions on here, the ridiculous negativity is another thing. If I was TTA i'd just be listing a load of simple answers that will pretty much answer all of the moans in an instant... For istance, if HDGS's sums are right, and I have every faith they are, if the TTA come out and say this would anyone have a problem with the staduim capacity, if they also say that it is easily expandable to 20k? I think not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Whilst I can understand some of peoples concerns I don't quite see the reason for negativity at this stage. This is the 1st public announcement of the proposed project. Comments in the statement such as: - "Subject to Cabinet approval, Oldham Athletic will next commission architects to work up more comprehensive plans" "Talks are also still ongoing with the Pennine Acute Trust" "The recent confirmation that Metrolink is coming to the borough also makes this proposition highly attractive" "There will obviously be plenty of talking to be done with local residents and affected groups - some of which is already underway" Simon Corney added: "Much work remains to be done on the detail of these plans" "We feel very upbeat and positive having made more progress in the past six weeks or so than we previously did in as many years" "This new vision gives us an opportunity to provide a facility that will create new revenue streams to make the club financially viable and self-sustaining, whilst also giving supporters a superior matchday experience." I have highlighted certain parts of the extracts above for those who may not have read or interpreted the joint statement correctly. Much is still to come out over the coming months in the detail, but it is quite clear form the statement that the plans will include for other income streams to be generated from the new stadium, (as were proposed for a re-developed bp) to enable us to become self sufficient. IT IS IMPORTANT THEREFORE THAT WE SHOW A LITTLE MORE PATIENCE, AND WAIT TO SEE THE FULL DETAILS AS THEY EMERGE ONCE THE PLANS HAVE BEEN DRAWN UP, BEFORE GOING OFF HALF COCKED ON A MESSAGE BOARD. Clearly there is much still to be done. The plans for the stadium need to be drawn up to start with and I understand that they will include for allowing for an expansion to 20,000 if required at some point in the future, unlike the redeveloped BP plans which would have been exceptionally hard to expand to 20K after the surrounding land was re-developed. 1 point worth noting on the capacity is this. New stadiums construction costs are generally costed on £'s per seat and vary from around £1000 to £1500 depending on facilities to be included. So to build the stadium at an extra 8,000 seats at the cheap end of the scale, would add £8 million to the costs. The extra income from filling those 8,000 seats per match (averaged net of vat and allowing for pensioners/concessions etc) = £104,000 per match, meaning that it would take a minimum of 72 sold out matches at 20,000 attendances just to pay off the cost and that doesn't include for any interest costs in the meantime. In effect that would be the 1st 4 years in the premiership having to all be sold out just to pay the cost of the extra 8,000 seats that we don't need at this moment in time. If we do ever reach the premiership again (Don't all be negative - who would have thought when JR was appointed in 1982 that we would get promoted) then the £8 million cost will pale into insignificance compared to the extra £40 million we will then recieve from extra TV money. As long as we have planning permission in place for the expansion, then properly planned construction works can carry on during the season without affecting capacity. Now is the time to get behind a scheme which (apart form the 6 months before BP finally recieved planning in December 2007) for the 1st time looks like something that is deliverable, and critically, the Council appear to be fully onside with. KEEP THE FAITH WITH THIS ONE. Cheers, Harry Thank you Harry. The initial statement delivers an excellent chance of progress - and a realistic next step for the club. Further expansion etc will be considered and hopefully the potential for that will be explained in the coming weeks. No we can't blindly accept everything that this , or any, Board of Directors say. We need to remain questioning - but in a constructive rather than doom and gloom, cynical manner. Do the plans say lack of ambition? don't think so. They say we are starting from a pretty lousy position but we can move forward and this is what is deliverable in the next five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossleyblues Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It's a very good point. Some people are raising issues, perfectly valid ones, and getting shot down straight away. We only have one shot at this and it needs to be right. Once the stadium is built that it, its final. It's not like signing a player. We can't just go and get another if this one doesn't work. Personally, I think 12,000 would be too small. Showing a lack of ambition. 15,000 would be about right, with the potential to upgrade to 20,000. You have got to show potential investors and future players that we are an attractive proposition, and that we do have some ambition. I think 12,000 says that we are a league 1 club with league 1 ambitions. Spot on!!! All we are doing is reading what was said !!! what was said is that a 12 k stadia was the plan .... to me if your gonna build a stadia then once its built thats it ... that is not just the size of the stadia but the ambition the owners see us .. we can only read and then comment on what is put infront of us and what i see is a stadia to small !!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Spot on!!! All we are doing is reading what was said !!! what was said is that a 12 k stadia was the plan .... to me if your gonna build a stadia then once its built thats it ... that is not just the size of the stadia but the ambition the owners see us .. we can only read and then comment on what is put infront of us and what i see is a stadia to small !!!!!!!!!!!! Don't necessarily agree with that. For example, Wycombe had a new stadium. They designed it to expand and have already done so twice to date. Sunderland is a new stadium that was expanded when the time and economics were right, and they are a BIG club. Burnley although not a new stadium have plans to expand Turf Moor now that they have achieved premiership status and now that the money is in place, but they have more land around the stadium unlike BP but as the Lancaster Club site will. Other new stadiums have been built for current needs and with the ability to expand in the future, examples of this are yeovil and more recently, Derby, Leicester, Colchester and Shrewsbury. Modern construction methods mean that todays stadiums are more easily expanded and at a cost that is not prohibitive. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danoafc Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I have another question... The old plans for Oldham Arena relied upon selling off big chunks of land for housing to fund the stadium... Now in the current crisis that isnt possible apparently... Developers arent buying.. The price off land has gone down... So how is it possible to sell off the whole site, one would presume, for the same purpose... That seriously dosent add up in my head...Or is it simply we can do it for a lower fee ? But who will buy ? Would it not possibly be better to sell off the smaller bits of land as planned, fix BP up, and add a few extras ? Surely that wouldnt cost much more than 10 million ? If we are going to downsize ambition I would rather we downsize it staying at BP and keeping a major asset on the clubs books. Proximinity to the motorway gives the land real commerical potential for hotels, conference facilities etc... Bottom of Broadway dosent... Maybe I am making a complex situation simple but I want more talks about all this to be frank... I dont like this new plan... Well at the moment anyway, do need more details... I supect that the value of the BP land will go up considerably if the houses to be built upon it aren't sharing the space with a football ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Saying that, just looking at pictures of those two grounds, which look very boring. Hope it will have a bit more character. Any ideas when destruction/building will commence? Shewsbury and Colchester seem much better than Doncaster in my eyes. I would like some individuality with the stands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossleyblues Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 What needs to be done is this new ground needs to be built before we move out .. think we have seen this before .... yes boundary park and its land is worth lol well lets say a lot more money in what ever way you want to put it than the land proposed we are buying .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleetwood Blue Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I cannot understand why some people are whinging about having a brand new stadium which can hold 12,000, we have had crowds on average of 5-6k for the last few seasons and even if we get promoted i estimate we will struggle to get 10,000. Why should TTA fund a 20,000 stadium when they know themselves they would be throwing their hard earned money away, we would have no atmosphere with 14,000 empty seats and the only time it would ever be full would be for an fa cup game against the scum or city. I for one am pleased with these plans and i cant believe people can question TTA ambition when i think that from a town the size of Oldham only about 3,500 fans who actually live in Oldham attend the games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I am very pleased about this news. It has more of a feeling of something that will actually get done, as opposed to the pipe dreams which have never really got off the ground in recent times. I see people are saying that it lacks ambition, it doesn't go far enough. Well it would be a step further than any we're taking at the moment. Kneejerk negativity is not what is required at this time. This figure of 12000 may not be set in stone. We need to embrace this project. Short of a massive investment of funds, I fail to see how a massive super-stadium could be built, or indeed why it needs to be so much bigger than is stated. To be honest, selling 12000 tickets most weeks is a problem I'd love to have, in these times of 5k a week! That said, it would be an excellent idea if questions about the details of it all could be asked. I for one would like a touch of individuality and quirkiness to be included in the construction of the new stadium. Onwards and upwards! =) As it seems necessary to keep pointing out, ground capacity isn't about whether you fill your stadium every week, but about where you want to eventually be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAFC_Rob Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Okay it mite have already been mention on this one already but what does this part of the accounment mean "Upon completion, the club would then sign a long-term lease with the local authority." Does this mean we won't own the actual ground and wil be renting much like city??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 hey im sober and just look at clubs like bolton,,hull,,wigan,,stoke...all no bigger than us a few seasons back u didnt see these 4 clubs build 12000 stadium,,,,they all built big before they went up It's already been established by the knowledgeable people and superfans on this board that we are inferior to all those clubs. Stop dreaming and get real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 got a spare £80M, if so we can do the oldham arena plans, otherwise this is the best way forward for the club, long term! It isn't a way forward, it's a settelement. (Or the ghost of one.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Dowds Green Shirt Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Okay it mite have already been mention on this one already but what does this part of the accounment mean "Upon completion, the club would then sign a long-term lease with the local authority." Does this mean we won't own the actual ground and wil be renting much like city??? No it doesn't necessarily mean so. OMBC have in the past preferred to lease the land around the town for development thereby keeping the freehold where covenants are usually inserted to protect the "greater interest" of the town. It also means that the Council get a yearly groung rent for the land rather than a larger 1 off payment, which depending on central governement rules and regs at the time of disposal usually gets sidetracked into some ring fenced fund which the Council loses out on. So, all in all not a bad deal all round. Cheers, Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I can understand people’s issues regarding “ambition” and the capacity for big games but what about the capacity for the other 90% of games where it’s less than half full and there is no atmosphere. Big stadiums cost more to build and to maintain and it will be quite a big gamble to build something with a bigger capacity if we then can’t fill it. TTA did have ambition to build a bigger stadium, but the people never came, the economy diminished but their losses are continuing. I don’t feel we should settle for second place but perhaps “ambition” should actually be a second priority to “having a club to be ambitious about”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossleyblues Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 It's already been established by the knowledgeable people and superfans on this board that we are inferior to all those clubs. Stop dreaming and get real. hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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