slystallone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Gone are the days i give a :censored: about the National side. I used to, massively, but as the years have rolled on & more examples of the EPL ruining our game have surfaced; i just started to care less & less. I watched some of last nights game; but being totally honest; I switched over to Sky Sports 1 and watched the highlights of Englands t20 innings (young Hales was so unlucky getting out on 99) after about 60/70mins. I switched back once that was finished and saw what, 3/4s of extra time and the pens. We arent good to watch, and we're not good enough. Credit to Roy, he's come in & assessed the group and realised what most fans knew. We're not good enough. He's done what Roy has done all his managerial career; made us hard to break down playing a rigid and flat 4-4-2. The France game was dull, Sweden was poor apart from Carrolls goal and the Ukraine game was awful - we played better than that (once!) under Dave Penney!! Last night would have been one of biggest footballing wrong-doings had we gone through........ We dont have the players; ours just arent as good as other Nations. Yep the EPL might have cause to say it's the best league; but its packed full of nationalities and its best players arent English - they're from Argentina, Spain, Holland, France, Italy, Germany, Ivory Coast, Ghana....... 2014 will be more of the same. The good thing is that finally it seems the media & fans have come to realise that we are average. It taken years & years; but i think it's finally sunk in that we are quarter final material at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The trouble is 2014 doesn't need to be more of the same, it will be though even if we make the kind of drastic changes needed. Usual generic post about how Messi wouldn't make it as a player over here as clubs would say he is too small, more whinging about how we pick the big tall lads and stick them at the front and back, if they're quick they get shunted out to the wing to whip it in for the big lad to nod in, 4-4-2, must win at all costs and premier league clubs snaffling all the talent and breaking them in their youth and reserve sides. I think we all are probably in agreement. Trouble is it is having a bad effect on clubs like ours and the standard of players we are left with which means that the standard of football we watch is poorer and people stop paying for it which completes the vicious circle. The Observer did a series a few years ago about how Football was eating itself, in this country it definitely has, until we stop this happening we will see this "glorious failure" time after time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Gerrard is approaching his sell by date and his replacement is Jordan Henderson. I feel our international heyday may have passed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Interestingly I've seen many comments that Henderson came on, sat on Pirlo and didn't give the ball away. I was as shocked as anyone when he came on but to be fair Parker was found out at this level and we don't have a true defensive midfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 it would have been an injustice had we won , we contributed to pur own downfall though by giving the ball away every single time we got it. I see a bleak few years for england , our better players are ageing and nobody is coming through to replace them. Hart, Johnson, Jagielka, Jones, Smalling, Walker, Richards, Young (poor tournament aside), Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Welbeck, plus however many other youths who we don't know of yet (many of the above listed were unknown in say 2008). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 it would have been an injustice had we won , we contributed to pur own downfall though by giving the ball away every single time we got it. I see a bleak few years for england , our better players are ageing and nobody is coming through to replace them. Jack Wilshere Kyle Walker Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain Joe Hart Danny Welbeck Gary Cahill Kieran Gibbs Jack Rodwell etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Given that most of our players fall short of world class I'd credit Roy with getting his tactics spot on. We can't out football the top teams so we have to find another way and if that's sitting back then so be it. It's a very fine line and if Rooney had knocked in that overhead kick then the tactics would have been fully justified, All if's and buts of course but one trait England teams have had for many years is that all important lack of mental strength when it comes to the crunch time of penalties. Completely agree. Our problem is not Roys tactics, its the teaching of football froma school age, and whilst players are at the clubs as youths. And I completely agree about the lack of mental strength, its happened too often to be coicidence. But I think that is a society want it all for no effort sort of thing. I just hope that English players can pick up something from some of the world class players around. Edited June 25, 2012 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Jack Wilshere Kyle Walker Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain Joe Hart Danny Welbeck Gary Cahill Kieran Gibbs Jack Rodwell etc. etc. Yep, barely a hope of a world class player amongst them. Not one of them are first choice on the team sheet, Joe Hart excepted. I cannot beleive I was the only one that did not rate welbeck at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Take your points lads; but compare that list to Germany: Otzil Khedira Bender Muller Neurer Kroos Goertz Hummels We just dont compare...... (apologies for the spellings of the Germans - dam multi-cultural society!!) Edited June 25, 2012 by slystallone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Yep, barely a hope of a world class player amongst them. Not one of them are first choice on the team sheet, Joe Hart excepted. I cannot beleive I was the only one that did not rate welbeck at all. Really? I reckon Wilshere and Walker are fantastic prospects and could well develop into world class players. Hart's up there already. The rest, I agree. And Kieron Gibbs I've never been that impressed with at all. I didn't rate Welbeck before the competition but I have to hold my hands up and say he was one of the best of the bad bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) What i couldn't work out was that every time Rooney got the ball he had 4 italians around him. That means elsewhere on the pitch there must have been 9 English players (if you incluide Young and Milner) against 6 Italians. What were they doing because everytime they got the ball off Rooney and attacked they were still outplaying us !!!!!!!! Nothing changed since the 70s , can't remember who said it but many year ago when a foreign manager was asked how he would play against England he said. "Well we get the ball and play it around until we score but if we lose it we get it straight back from a long ball or goal kick, or if England play their passing game we wait 10 seconds and they will give it us back" At least saves the dreaded thrashing by the Germans but why are they so much better than us and always have been when individually they are not ??? Answres to the FA. FIFY¬! Edited June 25, 2012 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Take your points lads; but compare that list to Germany: Otzil Khedira Bender Muller Neurer Kroos Goertz Hummels We just dont compare...... (apologies for the spellings of the Germans - dam multi-cultural society!!) Bender Snigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4froale Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Jack Wilshere Kyle Walker Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain Joe Hart Danny Welbeck Gary Cahill Kieran Gibbs Jack Rodwell etc. etc. will be a good players but will welbeck compare to an in form michael owen ? will jack rodwell compare to steven gerrard. our better players are being replaced , just with players who arent as good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 will be a good players but will welbeck compare to an in form michael owen ? will jack rodwell compare to steven gerrard. our better players are being replaced , just with players who arent as good. An inform Wayne Rooney would compare pretty bloody well to an in form Michael Owen. Who knows who will come through in the next few years, Owen was 18(?) when he broke through at France 98...do you know how good our 14 year old strikers are at the moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) An inform Wayne Rooney would compare pretty bloody well to an in form Michael Owen. Who knows who will come through in the next few years, Owen was 18(?) when he broke through at France 98...do you know how good our 14 year old strikers are at the moment? But we need to be looking at the 16-20ear olds, as Gerrard, Terry et al are likely to struggle in 2014. One 18 year old maybe, a la Owen and Walcott, but no more. Edited June 25, 2012 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 We are unlikely to go beyond the QFs in 2014. There was a general consensus after 2010 that there was a lot of rebuilding work to be done. This will take more than 4 years. I am baffled by the reaction of some when we knew we aren't currently good enough going into the tournament and most said we'd do well to scrape out of the groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldhamSheridan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 There is alot of re-building to be done. We just don't seem to have started yet. If we are serious, fund it at school level. Pick a school in an area, and have an fully funded FA coach on the PE staff. Get the talent from that area to that school. Get a coach going round to all schools to inform the PE teachers what we want (the ability to pass a ball would be a start) and what approach they should be taking. Until we teach the kids the young adults will arrive already broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I dont think there's been an over-reaction to the National sides performances & ultimate exit. I think for the 1st time in years & years; media, pundits & fans have been pretty realistic with their expectations. I knew we were crap & had no chance. My mates, work collegues and every tom, dick & harry i spoke to pre & during the euro's knew we were crap and had no chance. Our game is being killed from the top down. Youth development at the very top is inbalanced and broken. The Prem sides cherry pick the best youths from across the country, and then go and spend millions of top foreigners to play in the 1st X1s. The minute a talented youth is spotted at a side like ours; they're off to the bright lights of a Prem division sides youth set-up; instead of playing games & developing at a lower level. Its all about the Premier League for players; media and most fans across the country. Until the EPL is re-worked and re-moulded into a football first organisation instead of the finacially orientated one it currently is; then our National sides problems will always be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) An inform Wayne Rooney would compare pretty bloody well to an in form Michael Owen. Who knows who will come through in the next few years, Owen was 18(?) when he broke through at France 98...do you know how good our 14 year old strikers are at the moment? Ironic that Rooney's best England performances were alongside Owen. Agree that we were doing ok until Rooney the Rug came back, I hope Roy retires him and looks elsewhere. The team exceeded my expectations as I expected a first round exit, so to reach the knock out stages for only the third time in 30 odd years in this tournament, is a massive plus. IMHO it was always about looking to Brazil 2014, but we have to do that without Rooney, you can not be match fit but you can still put the effort in. Time and again he had the chance to drop deeper and push onto Pirlo but he didn't. It's time to look at what the Germans have done (no not cap Turks, Ghanians and Eastern Europeans) but to build a team around the likes of Hart, Carroll, Cahill, Jones and Welbeck and If we can get Wilshire fit all the better. I'd like to see Lampard, Ferdinand, Rooney bow out gracefully. For the likes of Gerrard and Terry they deserve a reprieve, they were excellent but I expect the next qualifying campaign for Brazil to be their last. As for Hodgson, he has seen the squad were not up to it, especially after the cluster of injuries before we flew out there. If we had a proper go against the better sides as we leave too many gaps, we went in nice and tight - worked our bollocks off and come home with heads held high. An average Italy team were worthy winners, and I fully expect Germany to take them apart with their energy and running from deep. I had lost interest in England for a good few years, with Mr Hodgson at the helm, and in giving the youngsters a go, he may just have re-ignited my interest. Germany/Spain Final and too close to call imo. Edited June 25, 2012 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Ironic that Rooney's best England performances were alongside Owen. Agree that we were doing ok until Rooney the Rug came back, I hope Roy retires him and looks elsewhere. The team exceeded my expectations as I expected a first round exit, so to reach the knock out stages for only the third time in 30 odd years in this tournament, is a massive plus. IMHO it was always about looking to Brazil 2014, but we have to do that without Rooney, you can not be match fit but you can still put the effort in. Time and again he had the chance to drop deeper and push onto Pirlo but he didn't. It's time to look at what the Germans have done (no not cap Turks, Ghanians and Eastern Europeans) but to build a team around the likes of Hart, Carroll, Cahill, Jones and Welbeck and If we can get Wilshire fit all the better. I'd like to see Lampard, Ferdinand, Rooney bow out gracefully. For the likes of Gerrard and Terry they deserve a reprieve, they were excellent but I expect the next qualifying campaign for Brazil to be their last. As for Hodgson, he has seen the squad were not up to it, especially after the cluster of injuries before we flew out there. If we had a proper go against the better sides as we leave too many gaps, we went in nice and tight - worked our bollocks off and come home with heads held high. An average Italy team were worthy winners, and I fully expect Germany to take them apart with their energy and running from deep. I had lost interest in England for a good few years, with Mr Hodgson at the helm, and in giving the youngsters a go, he may just have re-ignited my interest. Germany/Spain Final and too close to call imo. Retire Wayne Rooney, who'll be 28 at the 2014 World Cup? Nah. I concede he's been crap in both of the last two major International tournaments but if we want to do anything in Brazil, he should be there. I can't imagine there'll be many better options. Like most people, I fully expected us to go out last night. Still think we should have taken Scholes and Pirlo's role for Italy showed exactly why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Last three tournaments Stevie forgotten his red card against Portugal in 2006 already? And the focal point of the one that failed to get to Austria in '08. His time has come and gone, and should bow out with Lampard et al. We looked a better side without him and that speaks volumes. As for Scholes he retired years ago, we shouldn't be looking back. if young Wilshire can get fit we'll have real option in there. Rooney cannot imo play with the other strikers we have. Edited June 25, 2012 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) 1.) There was a bit of me that wanted Roy to stick with Carroll and Welbeck for the game against Ukraine. As in fairness they had both had pretty good performances throughout the tournament. Purely because that would have sent a message to Rooney not to be an idiot and that if he was unavailable for and his replacements played well he would stick with them. He knew and everyone else knew that if England ended up going out as a result though he would get abused something terrible in the press and he didn't want to risk it. Louw the German coach got lambasted after dropping his front 3, all of whom had been worse than Carroll, it proved to be the right decision though. 2.) I think people forget that Scholes retired and if he hadn't had done so he probably would have played an extra 30 internationals, he did retire a while ago. That's an extra season and I doubt Scholes would have that in his legs. Plus when Scholes played against City, City comfortably ran midfield and Scholes was outclassed. It's all well and good having a Scholes/ Pirlo in your team but put the right midfield against you and you are in trouble. 3.) Joe Hart is a world class keeper, Casillas aside (as he's not had much to do), he has been the GK of the tournament. However, he is particularly vulnerable to the Pirlo penalty as he goes everytime and quite early. Other teams will work this out I reckon. 4.) John Terry has played well at this tournament, English defenders seemingly play well at tournaments regularly. However, a lot of his good defending moments; the tackle against Mario last night and the clearance off the line against Ukraine, have come about after he has made an error in the build-up. The tackle last night seemingly it wasn't mentioned that it was him that played Balotelli onside. If he hadn't played him onside he wouldn't have been able to get back to make the tackle but it wouldn't have mattered because Mario would have been offside. 5.) For me Roy got his tactics wrong last night, we were weak in midfield because Italian width was provided by their FBs and they had 4 CMs playing. It was crying out for the centre midfield to be strengthened and putting a CM on Pirlo, not Rooney/Welbeck/Carroll a CM. Pirlo aside I wasn't that impressed with the Italian midfield and I think the Germans could spank them as I expect them to put a CM on Pirlo and that will seemingly stop the Italians from playing. 6.) Finally, Roy's comment about penalties and it being difficult to replicate the pressure and the running required to get to that stage. How about in training, getting them to run for a considerable length of time and then practising penalties. Or after a competitive fixture getting the squad to have a mock shoot-out and creating some element of competition like Manchester v. The Rest, North v. South. Top 4 v. Not etc. If the crowd know its going to happen and stay then whilst not fully recreating the pressure it might come close to replicating it. Edited June 25, 2012 by rudemedic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ritchie Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Give me Latics struggles over England any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Or after a competitive fixture getting the squad to have a mock shoot-out and creating some element of competition like Manchester v. The Rest, North v. South. Top 4 v. Not etc. If the crowd know its going to happen and stay then whilst not fully recreating the pressure it might come close to replicating it. This is not the worst idea. Doesn't quite replicate but beats ten minutes at the end of training behind closed doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeylandLatic Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Because all our players were knackered after spending the game chasing the ball which showed in the penalty shoot out as we were too tired physcially and therefore too tired mentally to convert the penalties. at 33 Pirlo was the older than any of Englands outfield players he bossed the game for 120 minutes and in the penalty shootout he steps up fresh as a daisy and confidentally converts. Marking him out the game would have helped but what would have helped more is that when we got the ball we kept it and made him chase it for abit. Its a deep rooted problem in the English game you even here it mentioned on here about "tipy tappy bollocks" and the usual shouts at Boundary Park of "Get it forward" the type of people who would have looked at the muchkins of Spain and Barcelona's midfield, Iniesta and Xavi and would have dissmissed them as weedy little gayboys had they turned up at Boundary Park. England do produce some dynamic footballers but we don't produce intelligent ones who just keep the ball moving. The one player who breaks the mould in this respect is Paul Scholes its no wonder the foreign players and coaches wax lyrical about him his ability to keep the ball and build pressure on the opposition might go un noticed in games but it makes a hell of a difference when its not there. Despite that I'm not that dissapointed I think England were no more than a quarter final team anyway and went about as far as most of us expected anyway. I've been saying this for about a decade now. The problem in English football is our mentality. Pace/Strength/Determination are all great characteristics but they shouldn't be the main basis for how we play. The biggest problem is the scouting at grass roots level seems to be more about finding the fastest, strongest players not the most naturally gifted. It's a case of teaching youngsters how to play football rather than selecting those who have a natural ability and football brain and nurturing it. Size and strength are just not a necessity to win football matches anymore. Look at Spain, maybe 75% of the starting 11 are around 5'8 or less and hardly well built but they are ripping most teams apart. The most important thing in football as far as i'm concerned is having a football brain and unfortunately 99% of English footballers don't have it. Technique can be taught and improved, strength can be built, but truly understanding how to play the game is something you just have or you don't. It's time we stopped trying to 'engineer' a team of giants and understand that size isn't really that important. The best players of the last 15-20 years generally didn't get their reputation by being the fastest or strongest or most determined, it's normally because they're thinking about the game on a different level to everyone else. Even the things that make Messi stand out, he's quick, agile, skillful, but when he does something really impressive it's normally because he's seen something that nobody else could. Also Wayne Rooney is :censored:ing :censored:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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