The banishing of 352.

[League one forever]

When Unsworth joined us he insisted on playing 352 and kept putting square pegs in round holes to make it work- his tactics returned 3 wins in 17 playing that system. 
 

He then ‘stumbled’ on something as he put it- this transpired to be 442. Results turned around but occasionally he flirted with it again and then reverted to 442 because it wasn’t working. He eventually left it alone and we really picked up, finishing the season strongly playing 442. 
 

Summer comes and he buys no specialist wingbacks, but more alarmingly he seems to have forgotten what happens when you play 352 with players out of position. . . but he does it anyway. 
 

If he wants to keep his job he needs to dump 352 immediately because it’s clear as day he isn’t good enough to coach it, and he hasn’t got the players for it. 
 

I’ll take grinding. 
 

I’ll take results over aesthetics.  
 

But that formation yesterday was blatant arrogance/stupidity. It’s got to stop. 

[mcfluff1985]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

When Unsworth joined us he insisted on playing 352 and kept putting square pegs in round holes to make it work- his tactics returned 3 wins in 17 playing that system. 
 

He then ‘stumbled’ on something as he put it- this transpired to be 442. Results turned around but occasionally he flirted with it again and then reverted to 442 because it wasn’t working. He eventually left it alone and we really picked up, finishing the season strongly playing 442. 
 

Summer comes and he buys no specialist wingbacks, but more alarmingly he seems to have forgotten what happens when you play 352 with players out of position. . . but he does it anyway. 
 

If he wants to keep his job he needs to dump 352 immediately because it’s clear as day he isn’t good enough to coach it, and he hasn’t got the players for it. 
 

I’ll take grinding. 
 

I’ll take results over aesthetics.  
 

But that formation yesterday was blatant arrogance/stupidity. It’s got to stop. 

Formation isn't the problem 

[Wardie]

He will persist with it because he believes he is right, that it is the way to go with these players and he won't lose his job over it.

I thought he ideally wanted to set-up as 4-3-3 or am I dreaming that?

[League one forever]

Just now, Wardie said:

He will persist with it because he believes he is right, that it is the way to go with these players and he won't lose his job over it.

I thought he ideally wanted to set-up as 4-3-3 or am I dreaming that?

If he persists with it- I guarantee he will get sacked. Because we’ve hardly won a game playing it. When you say ‘the way to go with these players’ - he signed nearly every one of them now, and we still don’t have a wingback on the books. . . so I can’t get head around playing a centre half as wing back. 
 

Yeah- he did say that about 433. But he’s played two formations in his tenure 352 & 442.
 

One get results one doesn’t. 

[Wardie]

1 minute ago, League one forever said:

If he persists with it- I guarantee he will get sacked. Because we’ve hardly won a game playing it. When you say ‘the way to go with these players’ - he signed nearly every one of them now, and we still don’t have a wingback on the books. . . so I can’t get head around playing a centre half as wing back. 
 

Yeah- he did say that about 433. But he’s played two formations in his tenure 352 & 442.
 

One get results one doesn’t. 

If he brings in this rumoured right-back, how does that pan out? I completely agree with you that 4-4-2 is how it should be but with those two in midfield it is a total nightmare.

[Monty Burns]

if we had a decent RWB and Lundstrum and Ward were fit it would be fine so l'm not for banishing.

but l am completely against playing it without the correct players and combining it with a no contact, jockey along shit training session gameplan.

[LightDN123]

31 minutes ago, Wardie said:

He will persist with it because he believes he is right, that it is the way to go with these players and he won't lose his job over it.

I thought he ideally wanted to set-up as 4-3-3 or am I dreaming that?

It’s even more baffling that he said he wants to play 4-3-3, yet has done fuck all about playing that way. The more I think about it the more he has not got a clue. 

[League one forever]

13 minutes ago, Wardie said:

If he brings in this rumoured right-back, how does that pan out? I completely agree with you that 4-4-2 is how it should be but with those two in midfield it is a total nightmare.

Yeah, we’re struggling in the midfield without lundstram. I like Sheron because at the very least he puts a shift in, but Shelton is a ghost and Gardner may as well retire. Having said that- we’re twice as weak when we play three at the back. So that only strengthens the case for a flat back four. 

[League one forever]

2 minutes ago, Monty Burns said:

if we had a decent RWB and Lundstrum and Ward were fit it would be fine so l'm not for banishing.

but l am completely against playing it without the correct players and combining it with a no contact, jockey along shit training session gameplan.

Even if he had brought the right players in Monts, I genuinely don’t think he’s good enough tactically to help the players get the best out of it. It’s a really hard system to play for the top players never mind division 5 players. 

[Wardie]

2 minutes ago, LightDN123 said:

It’s even more baffling that he said he wants to play 4-3-3, yet has done fuck all about playing that way. The more I think about it the more he has not got a clue. 

I think 4-3-3 may get results, depending upon the midfield, as we have six competent strikers to feed.

[ceskylatic]

13 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Yeah, we’re struggling in the midfield without lundstram. I like Sheron because at the very least he puts a shift in, but Shelton is a ghost and Gardner may as well retire. Having said that- we’re twice as weak when we play three at the back. So that only strengthens the case for a flat back four. 

Agreed. We don’t have the players to play 3-5-2. In order to play the formation you need the 2 wide centre halves to have pace. Hogan plays central which is fine, but Raglan and Hobson aren’t quick enough for me. Yarney would’ve been ok plus another quick centre half. 
Its obviously been done to death that Sutton isn’t a wing back, despite DU’s persistence using him there.

[Monty Burns]

19 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Even if he had brought the right players in Monts, I genuinely don’t think he’s good enough tactically to help the players get the best out of it. It’s a really hard system to play for the top players never mind division 5 players. 

if what l see as poor tactics is a direct result of your suspicions (suspect lve spelt that wong) then yes l agree we should never deploy it. l actually think it takes a lot to make a division 5 player and even some top players don't get stuff sometimes bc theyre thick as fuck!!!!

[rudemedic]

I like 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 as a formation, I have ever since England got to the semi-finals of WC 90 and Euro 96 playing it.

 

With the right players it can work. But Sutton as the RWB is not the right player and playing Sheron and Shelton in the midfield 3 doesn't work either. As that in effect gives us 7 defensive outfield players on the pitch, which is at least 1 too many.

 

If he plays 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 against Aldershot I would hope he plays either Sheron or Shelton at RWB (or Green if fit) and then Dickenson and 2 others in midfield, one of which may have to be Sheron or Shelton. 

 

Unless we sign a RB or a right midfielder (not necessarily a right winger) who can play as RWB I would be disappointed if he plays 3-5-2 in the majority of our games.

[yarddog73]

3-5-2 isnt the problem, 5-3-2 is or 7-1-2 that we played at times yesterday.

 

We played four players in a back 5 whose preferred position is as a right sided centre back, the worst of the four in my opinion played there yesterday, work that one out. 

 

From our midfield Sheron, Shelton and Dickenson have played large chunks of their careers in a back four or five, so that's eight of our outfield players who are defensively minded and you wouldn't describe as ballers. In fact their pass completion rate particularly in key areas would be horrendous. 

 

Anyone with an ounce of ability has been fucked off, count Vaughan, Rooney, Tollitt, Burgess in that bracket and it's very easy to see where we are going.

 

Every team bar none who challenge in this division will control the football, not all as good as Notts County but most will bully and dominate the opponent, we don't and Unsworth has no intention of doing so, he's happy to sit in and attempt to do teams on the counter attack but we just don't have the quality, even Green who has probably been our best player with Fondop pre season is being asked to defend first, it's naive and opposition manager know exactly how we are going to set up, where the pockets are going to be and the time they are going to be given to just stroll up the pitch almost unopposed. Why do teams look instantly dangerous when we defend yet it takes us an age to build anything up.

 

Shez got some shit for being a dinosaur but these lot are a million years behind with their tactical nouce and oh so predictable.

 

What ever happened to this mythical 4-3-3 Rhino claimed to prefer wouldn't a front three of Reid, Fondop and Norwood and throw Nuttall, Hope and Willoughby in to the mix at least give the opposition something to think about?

[oafc1955]

4 minutes ago, yarddog73 said:

3-5-2 isnt the problem, 5-3-2 is or 7-1-2 that we played at times yesterday.

 

We played four players in a back 5 whose preferred position is as a right sided centre back, the worst of the four in my opinion played there yesterday, work that one out. 

 

From our midfield Sheron, Shelton and Dickenson have played large chunks of their careers in a back four or five, so that's eight of our outfield players who are defensively minded and you wouldn't describe as ballers. In fact their pass completion rate particularly in key areas would be horrendous. 

 

Anyone with an ounce of ability has been fucked off, count Vaughan, Rooney, Tollitt, Burgess in that bracket and it's very easy to see where we are going.

 

Every team bar none who challenge in this division will control the football, not all as good as Notts County but most will bully and dominate the opponent, we don't and Unsworth has no intention of doing so, he's happy to sit in and attempt to do teams on the counter attack but we just don't have the quality, even Green who has probably been our best player with Fondop pre season is being asked to defend first, it's naive and opposition manager know exactly how we are going to set up, where the pockets are going to be and the time they are going to be given to just stroll up the pitch almost unopposed. Why do teams look instantly dangerous when we defend yet it takes us an age to build anything up.

 

Shez got some shit for being a dinosaur but these lot are a million years behind with their tactical nouce and oh so predictable.

 

What ever happened to this mythical 4-3-3 Rhino claimed to prefer wouldn't a front three of Reid, Fondop and Norwood and throw Nuttall, Hope and Willoughby in to the mix at least give the opposition something to think about?

Can’t argue with most of that tbh….Just imagine what Harry Kewell, ( the exact opposite of Unsworth )

could get out of this lot!!

[League one forever]

48 minutes ago, rudemedic said:

I like 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 as a formation, I have ever since England got to the semi-finals of WC 90 and Euro 96 playing it.

With two of best coaches we’ve produced in Robson and Venables. Hoddle also played it very well. 
 

That is my point though. The best players with the best coaches. 
 

Not Unsworth with division 5 players. 

[rudemedic]

2 minutes ago, League one forever said:

With two of best coaches we’ve produced in Robson and Venables. Hoddle also played it very well. 
 

That is my point though. The best players with the best coaches. 
 

Not Unsworth with division 5 players. 

I take it you think Southgate is one of the best coaches we've had too?

 

As we played 3-5-2 in Russia 2018.

 

If more teams played different formations at youth level I think every professional club in the country would have the ability to play 3-5-2.

 

4-4-2 is not nor will it ever be a panacea for football.

[League one forever]

19 minutes ago, yarddog73 said:

 

3-5-2 isnt the problem, 5-3-2 is or 7-1-2 that we played at times yesterday.

 

It is Yardy. 
 

The facts speak for themselves. 
 

We had the 3rd best form in the league after Christmas when he switched to 442 - we were going down playing 352. 
 

Who on earth has he changed what was evidently working?? 
 

It’s baffling. 

[League one forever]

6 minutes ago, rudemedic said:

4-4-2 is not nor will it ever be a panacea for football.

Totally agree Rude, and don’t take my posts to mean I’m wedded to it. 
 

Im just making a really simple point- that DU only wins football matches when he plays 442- he’s not getting sacked and I want to win. So play the formation that wins you football matches. 

[Oldham_till_i_die]

442 IS the way to go. Especially under Unsworth, we were 3rd in the table playing 442 and he has strengthened the squad since then. You have to think a starting XI of

Norman

RB, Raglan, Hogan/Hobson, Kitch

Green, Lundstram, Sheron, Dickenson

Norwood, Fondop/Reid/Willoughby

would ask a lot of questions to any team in this league. Yes, I know Lundstram and green were unavailable and we don’t have a right back. But if we stay 442 we have a much better chance of winning. Put Hobson RB (not ideal I know but rhino hasn’t signed one yet). Try Gardner in midfield since we know shez and shelts don’t work. Gardner has bite and creativity on his day, none of which Shelton has. Start Magic Mike, he’s scored 4 in preseason and has looked the fittest. Hope/Tollitt on the right again not ideal I know but in my eyes better than Sutton playing as a rwb. With the squad depth we have, player unavailability is not an excuse for a change of formation. Unsworth set up negatively, 8 out of 11 players were defensive minded. What does he expect against an energetic, adrenaline filled Southend side. These are the basics a manager with any decent football understanding should know. It’s just not good enough. I expect at least 5 changes against aldershot, a change of formation and a drastic change of result.

[hollandspies]

Until Raglan offered himself to the club, Rhino had his two centre halves set in stone, with Sutton as backup. 

We would have setup 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 depending on the opposition because he more or less said so at the fans forum and even alluded to the possibility that Sutton could play full back. 
Signing Raglan has changed the whole dynamic of his defensive mindset because, it would seem that he hasn’t got the bottle to bench one. 
 

Why does he feel the need to play the 3……in a 5? 

There’s not one player in our squad who should expect to have the god given right to start. Rhino needs to hammer that home. 
 

Indeed, Raglan is a great signing and our squad depth is significantly improved. 

We crave for depth in our squad but prefer quality over quantity.
We will have that once a RB is added. 

That should allow for a starting 11 who are all specialists in the positions they play along with a strong bench which can offer like for like replacements when necessary. 

That said, we should never ever see the words ‘square pegs’ and ‘round holes’ mentioned again! 

 

 

[Summerdeep]

No-one ever mentions 4-2-4 these days. Maybe it's a prehistoric relic from a bygone age, but it can't possibly be worse than the current formation, if half of what I'm reading is true. I've no idea what 3-5-2 is, and still don't know what a 'wing-back' is, despite the term being at least three decades old.

 

The two sides that gained promotion in the 70s both lined up in a 4-2-4 formation. All you need is a couple of good midfielders and two effective wingers, the rest should sort itself out. It's really good to watch, when it works as well....

[deyres42]

Genuine questions, was Sutton playing as an actual wing back or more like a wider defender? Was it much different to the Green/Hobson set up from pre season? What was Kitchings positioning in relation to him?

[Monty Burns]

13 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Genuine questions, was Sutton playing as an actual wing back or more like a wider defender? Was it much different to the Green/Hobson set up from pre season? What was Kitchings positioning in relation to him?

based solely on BBC Radio Essex Kitching was up front by comparison, but Will got more and better crosses in.

 

[Monty Burns]

24 minutes ago, Summerdeep said:

No-one ever mentions 4-2-4 these days. Maybe it's a prehistoric relic from a bygone age, but it can't possibly be worse than the current formation, if half of what I'm reading is true. I've no idea what 3-5-2 is, and still don't know what a 'wing-back' is, despite the term being at least three decades old.

 

The two sides that gained promotion in the 70s both lined up in a 4-2-4 formation. All you need is a couple of good midfielders and two effective wingers, the rest should sort itself out. It's really good to watch, when it works as well....

it might work with our no midfield plan, but no thank you the players are possibly frazzled with instructions so it's an added complication. it also doesnt solve the four CB's into two positions problem.

 

also, idealistically, l want the game played on the floor in midfield so on a personal level am against anything that takes us further away from that.