General Election - 8th June 2017

[singe]

9 minutes ago, leeslover said:

Are immigration quotas right wing? It's not a policy change and it doesn't seem to putting former Labour voters off, however silly.

 

Who gives a shit that average families need to give their kids their lunch money?

 

Pensions is one of two things I can take some pleasure from in this. The retired are course to become massively richer than working people as it stands and it's not possibly sustainable. It probably took any party confident of a big majority to dare to say so and risk angering the keenest voters.

 

Don't know the details of charging migrant workers and students for the NHS. Not a vote lose in an average union meeting I'd guess.

 

Fox hunting won't ever pass and won't be a government policy. It's a sop to the old blokes in Tory associations to make them feel better about all the rest.

 

Leaving the customs union and Mrs Thatcher's Single Market is neither left or right wing. It's the result of the referendum and is supported by noted right wingers like Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell, as it was by Tony Benn.

 

 

I think wanting a 90% reduction in immigration is right wing. Yes.

 

Average kids don't need school lunches, it is the poorest that do, who are borderline malnourished and struggle to concentrate and the meal aids their education.

 

The retired of a generation ago were very well looked after, but those retiring soon are the ones very adversely affected. People where i work have stay in Local Govt for decades, partyl for the security of a pension and put up with low wages, but suddenly they were switched from (meagre) final salary pensions to average earnings ones with only a few years to go and no chance to make it up. They are hit the hardest. Final salary pensions are non existent now, so it is hotting those already hit hard.

 

Possibly NHS charges won't affect the average union worker, but the days of workers acting in solidarity are fading fast, a symptom of the Right Wing press successfully shaping the agenda. Brexit divided us all. But the fear can often be worse than the actuality.

 

Fox hunting depends on the majority. I am sure they thought the same about the European referendum.

 

I don't think Labour's policy is entirely clear on Brexit, but generally Corbyn is after a soft Brexit and still have access to the single market. But it is not Labour policy to cut immigration by the 90% level, that has always been a right wing target by Conservative and UKP.

 

I've often said I think politics is not Left or Right and Linear, but more circular, but do concede that the lines are blurred with regard to Brexit,

 

[leeslover]

What's going unsaid is that being racist isn't,  and never was the the preserve of right leaning people. 

[HarryBosch]

2 minutes ago, singe said:

 

The retired of a generation ago were very well looked after, but those retiring soon are the ones very adversely affected. People where i work have stay in Local Govt for decades, partyl for the security of a pension and put up with low wages, but suddenly they were switched from (meagre) final salary pensions to average earnings ones with only a few years to go and no chance to make it up. They are hit the hardest.

 

What they'd already built up was protected. Average salary with zero investment risk is still massively preferable to what any non-public sector person has as a pension, in the unlikely event they have a pension, or much of a pension, at all...

 

"Low wages"....? 

[HarryBosch]

6 minutes ago, singe said:

 

The retired of a generation ago were very well looked after, but those retiring soon are the ones very adversely affected. People where i work have stay in Local Govt for decades, partyl for the security of a pension and put up with low wages, but suddenly they were switched from (meagre) final salary pensions to average earnings ones with only a few years to go and no chance to make it up. They are hit the hardest. Final salary pensions are non existent now, so it is hotting those already hit hard.

 

 

Hang on - "meagre"? Fucking meagre? 

 

Are you taking the fucking piss? 

 

 

[blueatheart]

Most people, especially in the public sector, tend to earn their highest salaries in their last few years at work. How is it fair that they finish on 100% pension of their final salary when they've paid in considerably less over the forty years of service?

 

It leaves younger people picking up the bill and the pensions black hole getting larger and larger.

[ChaddySmoker]

7 minutes ago, blueatheart said:

Most people, especially in the public sector, tend to earn their highest salaries in their last few years at work. How is it fair that they finish on 100% pension of their final salary when they've paid in considerably less over the forty years of service?

It leaves younger people picking up the bill and the pensions black hole getting larger and larger.

It is fair because that is what they (and us the public) signed up for-we could have signed up too if that particular career had floated our boat.

Why does it have to be a race to the bottom? Get the Economy moving again and we could all be richer (and perhaps happier.)

[HarryBosch]

21 minutes ago, blueatheart said:

Most people, especially in the public sector, tend to earn their highest salaries in their last few years at work. How is it fair that they finish on 100% pension of their final salary when they've paid in considerably less over the forty years of service?

 

It leaves younger people picking up the bill and the pensions black hole getting larger and larger.

 

It's not 100% - 30 years service will get them about half their finishing salary for the rest of their days, usually with a continuing 50% to their spouse after death. Which is fantastic, and good luck to the ones who deserve it, I'm envious. 

 

Massively increased life expectancy is the biggest issue in these pensions remaining sustainable... Local authorites, police forces, government historically only had to pay out on these for a few years. Same with state pension... Now we knock on for 20 or 30 years after retirement.

 

As an example, for the non-public sector worker to build up a pension equivalent to the average low ranking copper he/she would need to contribute about £900 per month in todays terms (which would need to increase over the years). That's assuming the underlying investment performs, they don't have a chunk of it's value wiped off by something like the 2008 Financial Crisis just prior to retirement, legislation doesn't throw a spanner in the works, etc. etc,,

 

Referring to them as "meagre" when about 60% of working people don't even have a pension while being taxed to fund these makes my fucking piss boil - but this is how they've been indoctrinated by unions who need to justify their existence by making sure they stay worried, angry, misinformed and miserable....

Edited May 18, 2017 by HarryBosch

[blueatheart]

9 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said:

It is fair because that is what they (and us the public) signed up for-we could have signed up too if that particular career had floated our boat.

Why does it have to be a race to the bottom? Get the Economy moving again and we could all be richer (and perhaps happier.)

That will never solve the public sector pension black hole. 

 

I agree changing things is harsh, but if it was [more] flawed initially... then it needs to be changed.

[blueatheart]

Just now, HarryBosch said:

 

It's not 100% - 30 years service will get them about half their finishing salary for the rest of their days, usually with a continuing 50% to their spouse after death. Which is fantastic, and good luck to the ones who deserve it, I'm envious. 

I know. I meant 100% pension based on final salary.

 

Deserve it or get it? Plenty of deadwood in the public sector seeing out their days.

[HarryBosch]

3 minutes ago, blueatheart said:

I know. I meant 100% pension based on final salary.

 

Deserve it or get it? Plenty of deadwood in the public sector seeing out their days.

 

The way they cling on to a job they hate for, eg, £15,200 a year pension rather than £14,800 baffles me beyond belief.

A year of £14,800 will take a long, long time to make up at an extra £400 a year.....

Jack it in, stop moaning.....

 

Like all this - "They're going to MAKE me work to age 67 now, it's outrageous!".

No! You can retire whenever the fuck you want just like everybody, but your pension might then be a bit less, just like everybody.....

 

But, they'll keep paying their unions to tell them how hard done by they are....

[singe]

48 minutes ago, HarryBosch said:

 

What they'd already built up was protected. Average salary with zero investment risk is still massively preferable to what any non-public sector person has as a pension, in the unlikely event they have a pension, or much of a pension, at all...

 

"Low wages"....? 

Yes, I' m not talking about me and not my pension, I've always put into a private one since I started work, except the last 3 years, but they arespread over several company schemes. it is not worth much now and they have been poor investments overall. So ys, I agre a comparable employee to me will be much better off pension wise, less so salary wise over the years. Depends how long you live of course.

The staff I am talking about are Catering Assistants, Cooks and a road sweeper.

They are way below average wage, and the cost of living here is higher.

[Magister]

22 minutes ago, singe said:

Yes, I' m not talking about me and not my pension, I've always put into a private one since I started work, except the last 3 years, but they arespread over several company schemes. it is not worth much now and they have been poor investments overall. So ys, I agre a comparable employee to me will be much better off pension wise, less so salary wise over the years. Depends how long you live of course.

The staff I am talking about are Catering Assistants, Cooks and a road sweeper.

They are way below average wage, and the cost of living here is higher.

Are you talking about public sector catering assistants and cooks or private sector catering assistants and cooks? 

[mikeroyboy]

Final salary pensions (common in local government for none producing workers) have always been manifestly unaffordable as well as heavily subsidised by rate payers.

 

It is only in resent years the chickens have come home to roost. 

 

The care and medical evolution of procedures - just to make life more comfortable or bearable for millions is also unaffordable for any government. 

 

The chickens are on there way.  And yet we demand more. 

 

The NHS remit is unrecognisable from its inception in 1947. It is being abused by health tourists,  medical suppliers,  medical agencies and payoffs and re employment of senior management. 

 

To sort these anomalies is a mammoth task for any government and a few £ billion here and there off the rich is not going to cut the mustard. 

 

The world I live in today bears no resemblance to the world I was born into, a two bedroom flea pit and an outdoor loo. The majority of young people today have no sense of the future and how it's going to be paid for. Phones,  gadgets, clubs, holidays, cars...  is at the forefront of thier thoughts. And yet we demand more and more from our government for less and less. 

 

My view is the standard of politicians has never been so poor and simply follows the declining standard of any thought by the electorate of how utopia is going to be paid for. 

[leeslover]

13 minutes ago, mikeroyboy said:

 

 

The world I live in today bears no resemblance to the world I was born into, a two bedroom flea pit and an outdoor loo. The majority of young people today have no sense of the future and how it's going to be paid for. Phones,  gadgets, clubs, holidays, cars...  is at the forefront of thier thoughts. And yet we demand more and more from our government for less and less. 

 

 

There was no plan for how our lives and living standards were going to be improved and changed in a truly immeasurable way by everyone having a supercomputer in their pocket which cost less year on year whilst doing far more. It just happened as if by magic.

 

No magic seems to happen when a government of any colour tries to deliver a service 

[Matt]

11 hours ago, HarryBosch said:

Lefties: "we hate old folk & the rich!"

 

Theresa May: *takes fuel allowance off rich pensioners*

 

Lefties: "Tories are killing pensioners!"

 

(stolen from Twitter) 

 

Yeah, that's the problem with Twitter.

[Magister]

7 hours ago, leeslover said:

There was no plan for how our lives and living standards were going to be improved and changed in a truly immeasurable way by everyone having a supercomputer in their pocket which cost less year on year whilst doing far more. It just happened as if by magic.

 

No magic seems to happen when a government of any colour tries to deliver a service 

..well, there you have a resounding endorsement of the policy of nationalisation of key services?

[Crusoe]

1 minute ago, Magister said:

..well, there you have a resounding endorsement of the policy of nationalisation of key services?

 

And privatisation too.

[mikeroyboy]

7 hours ago, leeslover said:

There was no plan for how our lives and living standards were going to be improved and changed in a truly immeasurable way by everyone having a supercomputer in their pocket which cost less year on year whilst doing far more. It just happened as if by magic.

 

No magic seems to happen when a government of any colour tries to deliver a service 

Agreed. There was no plan but aspiration in shed loads. Aspiration to do your best at school, get a job (often any job you could get your hands on) and move up from there. And untold millions did just that.

 

My wife and I did something exceptional, even for the mid-60's. We removed ourselves from the swinging 60's and saved every penny we could for a year. I was an apprentice, she a factory worker. 12 months later we bought a two bedded, flagged floored, outside tipple toilet, coal fired, terraced house for £600 cash, over a third of our combined income for the year.

 

Both our families had nout and at the age of 20 and 18 we paid for the wedding as well. The morning of December 18th 1965 we were scraping ice off the inside of our bedroom window, not in Barbados or Florida - totally skint.

 

It felt entirely normal and we really didn't realise what we had achieved until many years later. We were back in work Monday, with our two mouths to feed and a bag of coal to fund life went on and it never occurred to us anyone should help us.

 

[ChaddySmoker]

8 hours ago, leeslover said:

There was no plan for how our lives and living standards were going to be improved and changed in a truly immeasurable way by everyone having a supercomputer in their pocket which cost less year on year whilst doing far more. It just happened as if by magic.

No magic seems to happen when a government of any colour tries to deliver a service 

When I think back to when I was starting work everyone was forecasting a 3 day week and machines and robots doing a lot of the mundane tasks.

How have we got it so wrong?  My own view is to blame narrow minded greed and consumerism. Surely there is a better way. 

11 minutes ago, Magister said:

..well, there you have a resounding endorsement of the policy of nationalisation of key services?

Why oh why do you have to be so pedantic when viewing matters. Your logic seems so one dimensional.

[rosa]

18 hours ago, HarryBosch said:

I think Labour's biggest problem is that very few people recognise this miserable existence they're going to rescue us all from...

 

 

Weirdly, the party that's been in power for 7 years appears to agree with them.

[ChaddySmoker]

16 minutes ago, rosa said:

Weirdly, the party that's been in power for 7 years appears to agree with them.

perhaps it's our age group who have become a set of moaning bastards

[Magister]

1 hour ago, ChaddySmoker said:

When I think back to when I was starting work everyone was forecasting a 3 day week and machines and robots doing a lot of the mundane tasks.

How have we got it so wrong?  My own view is to blame narrow minded greed and consumerism. Surely there is a better way. 

Why oh why do you have to be so pedantic when viewing matters. Your logic seems so one dimensional.

I see City of London Airport has this morning handed Air traffic control to a machine , and you get to that Airport on a driverless train which itself was built by robots .......

[opinions4u]

1 minute ago, Magister said:

I see City of London Airport has this morning handed Air traffic control to a machine , and you get to that Airport on a driverless train which itself was built by robots .......

 

If only I could fly there from Manchester other than on a Thursday night.

[deyres42]

Labour 8/15 to win Heywood and Middleton seems more than fair.

 

I did get 14/1 about them winning Croydon North until Willy Hills saw the error of their ways...

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

1 hour ago, deyres42 said:

Labour 8/15 to win Heywood and Middleton seems more than fair.

 

I did get 14/1 about them winning Croydon North until Willy Hills saw the error of their ways...

 

Politics is probably ripe for big betting wins (I wish I knew how). I'm told the prices reflect money down, like a tote system, rather than probability of outcome.