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In August 1998 I started work on the Royal Mail Y2K programme for the South East area, from north of London to Dover and about the same distance width wise, part of these 'preparations' as you put it.

I disagree that I'd rather see bad news. I wasn't a remainer, I spoiled my paper by drawing my own box, putting 'Fucked either way" and voting for that. It is far too early to tell what the effects of

The people's will was overwhelmingly in favour of apathy or at least the status quo. As it has been for some time.   During one of Tusk's outspoken tirades, somebody at work asked my who ele

To be fair, doing a divorce between two people, four if you lawyer up is a nightmare, I can't imagine increasing the number of parties to 27+ makes it any easier. Even worse when when the government's own red lines and Ireland make any sensible exit nigh on impossible. May has done a good job of getting a withdrawal agreement that pleases no-one, which is usually a good indicator that it is a least worst scenario, but as Brexit is so ill defined it is almost impossible to get an agreement that pleases anyone within the confines she's had to work in.

 

We could've had Captain MegaNegotiator trying to come to a resolution that unpicks 40+ years of close integration and they'd have come back with shit sandwich. There wasn't a negotiation to be had in the first place, we voted to leave the club, we voted to lose the benefits of the club as well as the disadvantages. The EU haven't played hardball they've just stuck to the legal agreements we are currently bound by. There's been too much politics thrust into an area that really could've done without it and then we've had an attempted putsch within the Tories. 

 

It's seat of the pants time now, no point even trying to guess what will happen next

 

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Both parties are fundamentally split,. She could probably come up with an offer which would get a decent amount of Labour support while maintaining the support of the centre of her party and be acceptible to the EU. I doubt there's anything she could offer the ERG and DUP that she could agree with the EU. Ultimately if she wants to get a deal through it's going to need substantial support from Labour which means it's going to need mirror the Labour position far more than it currently does i.e lose the pretense of not quite a customs union.

Ultimately this is a failure of the British political system which has been creaking badly since the financial crisis. The world is increasingly polarised, FPTP forces these massive parties to exist and then fosters purely oppositional politics. In most other countries at this point you'd see a far more cross party position based not on party politics but on the best intrest ot the country.  An absolute shambles.

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  • 1 month later...
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54 minutes ago, beag_teeets said:

That deal with the company that didn't have any boats, another £33m down the swanee - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

 

I'm starting to think that those who are trying to manage this process may not be the sharpest tools in the box with poor judgement and a sub-optimal understanding of reality.

Or corrupt.  Or all of the above.

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I think Grayling needs a thread of his own to be honest. Although things like the ferry balls up needn't have happened if Spreadshit Phil Hammond hadn't stalled the preparations to try and make it harder to leave 

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1 hour ago, beag_teeets said:

That deal with the company that didn't have any boats, another £33m down the swanee - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

 

I'm starting to think that those who are trying to manage this process may not be the sharpest tools in the box with poor judgement and a sub-optimal understanding of reality.

 

You’ve just defined politicians. 

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Agreed. Although, not many could play the piano as badly as Les Dawson, but to do it as badly as he did took talent. I think Parliament is suffering from the complete absence of talent, critical thinking and and understanding of cause and effect in the strategy and decision making body. I can understand Grayling really needing to employ a 'British' ferry firm so it could be sold as a success for Britain that our crisis boats were going to be British, but to not do sufficient due diligence or understand competition law really is piss poo.

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'The fantasists hit reality when they won the referendum and the government was unwilling  to tell the public that the option they voted for to have our cake and eat it was never on the table”.

Hilary Benn on Sophy Ridge.

This sums up the whole debacle, we were conned by people who never thought they would win but were scoring party political, and or internal points.

Straight taking now needed.

Not convoluted strategies, triangulation and political point scoring.

Edited by joe_lead
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Sadly there is a lot of truth there. The smarter campaigners were on the Leave side, their MO could be one of an insurgent group and at a time when things were pretty shit economically having the remain side saying "Vote for the status quo even though it is shit" was an easy target. Leave never had to be defined, nor were the details how leave could be achieved, we seem to want to be out of the political side but still have some of the benefits such as frictionless trade and annexing parts of the Mediterranean coastal resorts. I don't think I ever talked about trade deals a lot in the years 0-40 but since then I appear to have discussed them a fair bit, mostly with other people who have a similarly low grasp of the specific details as I do and I'm not sure any of us are any the wiser after it all.

 

If "Only 3000 wagons will be able to travel across the channel and we only have 5000 certified pallets to use" had been written on the side of the bus some people might have thought that the benefits from vote to leave might not be achieved as easily as first stated.

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This is the site for the most comprehensive information.  

 

http://www.eureferendum.com  Here you will find monographs and Impact Statements on BREXIT.

 

The only sensible plan put forward, actually the only plan, FLEXCIT.  

 

Alas none of the elites wanted to know, too many pages to read and too much effort needed.  Even the media are more interested in personality politics and providing entertainment rather than proper investigative jounalism and taking these empty headed politicians to task.

 

May has gone wrong at almost every turn.  This is because she did not, does not understand the EU and how it works, she also took no cognisance of the fact that the vote was very narrow and proceeded to ignore the 48%, a sure fire way to divide the country.  She also seemed to believe that she had a mandate for the Tory party manifesto, a hung parliament should have told her she did not.  Her weakness and policy of party before people allowed the ERG (who actually do no research) to set the agenda.  Corbyn has been no better, ideolgy and sight set on number 10 being his prime concern.

 

It is interesting that many of the rabid BREXITeers were not against Norway style deals during the referrendum.  See here: https://quotebrexit.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/leave-campaigners-lets-stay-in-the-single-market/

 

I guess we will be left with a mess, in the meantime it has been reported that Rees-Mogg has already made £7 million out of this shit show.

 

That's my rant over.

 

 

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11 hours ago, GlossopLatic said:

The cost of Brexit £600million per week

 

Do we really need this? We could ofcourse just say this is a bad idea and reverse it.

 

We could, but we won't.  Best hope is fresh referrendum.  However, although MP's can have multiple votes and change their minds, the people are not allowed to.  Even if you are a Brexiteer, surely there is an argument to revoke, reset, make proper preparations and try again at a later date.  This current situation will only end in tears because no one in parliamet has a clue.

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I'm not convinced that a second referendum is what we need but what does worry me is how this whole thing will develop over the coming months and years. Leaving aside the details for a minute, (which has been half the problem from the off) but if we look at the options:

 

No deal

Soft Brexit

Long extension

Revoke Article 50

 

Apart from Long Extension, there are supporters of each who on the whole wouldn't be best pleased with the alternatives if they were implemented. Some would accept it and be happy to have a break from Brexit for a bit, others, and we are looking at fairly sizeable numbers would be pissed off and we'd be faced with years of attempts to overturn. Think it is bad now? It's not getting much better anytime soon even if your preferred option is implemented, so we've got all that to look forward to.

 

I did have an idea though, as I said, I'm not too keen on a second referendum, again, leaving aside the issues of the specific questions, if it produced a remain vote then some people will not be happy. If it is a leave vote then we are back to square one with an instruction to leave but no clear direction how to do it in a manner that works best for all parties. It is this impasse that has to be broken before we are going to make any progress so I was thinking that maybe another vote is an idea but without such a binary question.

 

As 'Do you want to leave/Do you want to remain' has turned into a shitshow howabout you select one option but then proceed to answer the next part:

 

Do you want to leave? 

If so:

May's deal

No deal

 

Do you want to remain?

But, if the result is leave which manner do you want:

May's deal

No deal

 

So as a punter you vote leave or remain, if remain wins then we remain and as for what happens next would depend on the size of the vote. If it was 52-48 the other way then we'd still be in the shit, if it was 70% remain then maybe the country has changed their mind? No idea what happens from there but if it was a comprehensive vote to remain then maybe that is the will of the people in 2019? 

 

If the result was that more people voted leave than remain then I think that even the most ardent remainer would cash their chips in, the country would've decided to vote leave twice but this time there is also an instruction how to get on with it. At this point you could add the result of the remain vote's additional question to the leave voters choice and we would have the answer to how the country wanted to Brexit. Yes, you can argue that this gives remain two cracks of the whip as it is likely that most would vote Remain & May's deal if we had to leave (I know May's deal is shit but that is all we have) - based on most remain voters probably wouldn't want no deal.  

 

The result would be that we'd still leave, may be not as hard as some want but this might be a compromise that the country could accept? Leave get to leave and remain have at least had an input into the manner. It made sense to me when i thought of it and i've probably not explained it but fuck me, what we're currently doing is not working. I bet most MPs have had nervous breakdowns, May certainly has, can you imagine trying to get some kip at night with all that shit on your mind. None of them are making good decisions and each day has been getting madder than the day before. I get that many leavers want to get it done now as there is the fear that they might not ever get another chance but even they could do with not having to go on TV and spout about the war and betrayal for a few days.

 

But that can't happen due to the Euro elections. I know Brussels need us to participate if we've not left but we are going to be sending oddballs of all descriptions back to them, I'm going to chose between Green or Monster Raving Loony, others will make their own choices.

 

Maybe the best thing is for torrential rain to continue in London so the Commons roof still leaks and no legislation or debates can take place for a bit but the climate is so fucked that we're not even getting the April showers any more. I just want it over, I'm trying to buy a flat but don't want to commit until there's a bit more certainty. Half hoping for no deal or civil unrest if we remain so that the housing market tanks and I can make out like a bandit from the repossessions or if we do descend into some sort of Hunger games, at least I wouldn't have to go in to work.

 

I'd certainly be much happier with chaos under Ed Miliband about now. 

 

 

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Even as a staunch remainer, we simply can't have a 2nd referendum, the people's will was leave, we must honour that vote, even though it is going to leave us in a sack load of shit. Voting again cannot be an option. 

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1 hour ago, disjointed said:

Even as a staunch remainer, we simply can't have a 2nd referendum, the people's will was leave, in a non-binding referendum where the winning side broke a lot of election laws. We must honour that vote, even though it is going to leave us in a sack load of shit. Voting again cannot be an option. 

For the reason why I've altered your post is exactly why a 2nd referendum is a necessity for me. Otherwise it ruins the laws of the land and sends an appalling message to the youth of the country about how being convincted of breaking the law doesn't have to have any consequences. 

 

I would whole heartedly agree that if the 2nd referendum was conducted legally (even if it is only advisory) and leave win, then we should leave, even as a staunch remainer who's health may be put at risk in the event of a no-deal. 

Edited by rudemedic
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2 hours ago, disjointed said:

Even as a staunch remainer, we simply can't have a 2nd referendum, the people's will was leave, we must honour that vote, even though it is going to leave us in a sack load of shit. Voting again cannot be an option. 

This bit is the key for me. When it is totally within their power to prevent such an occurrence, why on earth should any government deliberately leave us in a sack load of shit?

 

If there’s an option that’s better than sitting in a sack of shit then we have to take it. 

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12 hours ago, disjointed said:

The people's will was leave

 

The people's will was overwhelmingly in favour of apathy or at least the status quo. As it has been for some time.

 

During one of Tusk's outspoken tirades, somebody at work asked my who elects Donald Tusk. I said, we did; those European Elections that hardly anybody could be arsed to vote in, elect members of a European Parliament who in turn vote for a President.

 

I'm not sure that person ever voted in the European Elections, I'm guessing not.

 

 

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