League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I think this bit is really important. I don't want us to be a stepping stone for someone to come in, get us around the play offs to prove their worth then leave for a job higher up. We need someone to buy into the long term which needs us to be developing off the field, improving supply of academy players, training facilities and 1st team squad too. Never going to Happen NZ, we’ll always be a stepping stone. As are 95% of all other clubs. Dowie/Shez/LJ all proved you can win games without proper infrastructure. For me, it’s a balance. The club must help in prioritising the infrastructure to give managers and players the best chance. But players and managers love an excuse as to why they’re not performing, and the idea it’s not really their fault because we’re set up-to fail means they take no real responsibility- Which is absolute bollocks. You can have all the infrastructure you want, but without good players and a good manager it’s pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 4 hours ago, GlossopLatic said: I've gone into more detail on other posts what we need to do. But if you think it's just a change of manager and a change of "Tactics" that solves this then you've learned nothing over last how many years you've been supporting the club. Because it goes way beyond that. So by your reasoning- Until the academy is sorted, we have a sports science department, the training facilities are upgraded and the pitch is gleaming- (all in division 5) there is no point discussing team shape, tactics, players/manager performance because they’re just fighting a losing battle anyway. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, League one forever said: Never going to Happen NZ, we’ll always be a stepping stone. As are 95% of all other clubs. Dowie/Shez/LJ all proved you can win games without proper infrastructure. For me, it’s a balance. The club must help in prioritising the infrastructure to give managers and players the best chance. But players and managers love an excuse as to why they’re not performing, and the idea it’s not really their fault because we’re set up-to fail means they take no real responsibility- Which is absolute bollocks. You can have all the infrastructure you want, but without good players and a good manager it’s pointless. We will be a stepping stone to a point of course. But not after half a season of decent performance like what happened with Lee Johnson. We have to be more ambitious than that. Johnson left for Barnsley who were lower than us in the table and didn't go up til the season after. Would he have still left if we were a better run club who looked like they could sustain a promotion push and also sustain being in the league above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_R Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 14 minutes ago, nzlatic said: We will be a stepping stone to a point of course. But not after half a season of decent performance like what happened with Lee Johnson. We have to be more ambitious than that. Johnson left for Barnsley who were lower than us in the table and didn't go up til the season after. Would he have still left if we were a better run club who looked like they could sustain a promotion push and also sustain being in the league above? This is it. If we're well run and they can see a future and there's always a chance that a decent manager might stick with us and try an achieve something. if we muddle along living day to day, training here there and everywhere and signing players on short term deals so we change them all at the end of the season, they'll be off like a shot as soon as someone flutters their eyes at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 15 minutes ago, nzlatic said: We will be a stepping stone to a point of course. But not after half a season of decent performance like what happened with Lee Johnson. We have to be more ambitious than that. Johnson left for Barnsley who were lower than us in the table and didn't go up til the season after. Would he have still left if we were a better run club who looked like they could sustain a promotion push and also sustain being in the league above? But that’s not about infrastructure it’s about money, playing budget, and fanbase. He left, because all 3 were superior to what he could get with with us. So in effect you’re saying we need a money bags owner, because in reality that’s is what entice’s mangers to stay or drop down a division. They don’t move because the academy or training facilities are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 59 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I think this bit is really important. I don't want us to be a stepping stone for someone to come in, get us around the play offs to prove their worth then leave for a job higher up. We need someone to buy into the long term which needs us to be developing off the field, improving supply of academy players, training facilities and 1st team squad too. If it is Unsworth he will certainly have the credentials having worked in the Everton academy/u23’s for several years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_R Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 11 minutes ago, League one forever said: But that’s not about infrastructure it’s about money, playing budget, and fanbase. He left, because all 3 were superior to what he could get with with us. So in effect you’re saying we need a money bags owner, because in reality that’s is what entice’s mangers to stay or drop down a division. They don’t move because the academy or training facilities are good. But they might stay if we have the right things in place. They might not, you're quite right. If Johnson could see a future, a way would get promoted and live in the Championship he might have stayed. He may well not have done, but there'd be a better chance than him being told he had to wina cup tie to get the Liverpool game otherwise no one was getting paid for the next couple of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 Does anyone remember when we used to say no manger can succeed under ALMO. Well, now it’s become no manger can succeed until the infrastructure is right. I wonder what’s next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Steve_R said: But they might stay if we have the right things in place. They might not, you're quite right. If Johnson could see a future, a way would get promoted and live in the Championship he might have stayed. He may well not have done, but there'd be a better chance than him being told he had to wina cup tie to get the Liverpool game otherwise no one was getting paid for the next couple of months. Agreed. But seeing a future- actually means money. Managers talk a good game about building a club, but as soon as someone offers more- they’re gone. Or he’s going back to the club and saying can you match that- and then you’ve got them holding the club to ransom. Infrastructure should be good, so it brings money into the club and provides a good working environment. That’s where it ends. It’s then over to the incumbent manger to get results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, League one forever said: Does anyone remember when we used to say no manger can succeed under ALMO. Well, now it’s become no manger can succeed until the infrastructure is right. I wonder what’s next? My opinion is that folk do love to overcomplicate things at times. I have no factual evidence to back up my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, League one forever said: Does anyone remember when we used to say no manger can succeed under ALMO. Well, now it’s become no manger can succeed until the infrastructure is right. I wonder what’s next? Is anyone saying that? My opinion is that if we want to be successful long term then we need to give ourselves the best chance of attracting and retaining better players and coaches. There are no guarantees, but if we get the big wheel working (to use Darren Royle's analogy) then we stand a better chance of doing that. People may leave for more money of course, but also some people may turn that down because they're happier where they are. To use a hypothetical example... we get a new manager who gets us up around the play offs this season but we don't go up. Salford fail (again) and are looking for another new manager so they approach ours. He might leave for the higher wage. But then again he might stick around if we have a plan and an infrastructure to grow as a club and push harder for promotion next season. He might also like working for decent people. Yes he could go and get more money but what security would there be? I don't accept that we should exist like that. In this example, we probably couldn't compete on wages, but we could compete on security and working conditions. All I'm saying is that if we get the off field stuff right, we improve our chances of retaining staff. And investing in infrastructure (staff, facilities etc) improves our chances over time of being succesful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 9 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I don't accept that we should exist like that. It’s not about what is acceptable, it’s just the reality. I’d wager no manager would ever turn down more money and a higher league to stay because the working conditions at his current club are great. Look at Potter. At Brighton- fabulous club under Tony Bloom, all he could ask for in terms of great working environment. Chelsea come- he’s gone. Why? More money, better players etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 1 minute ago, League one forever said: It’s not about what is acceptable, it’s just the reality. I’d wager no manager would ever turn down more money and a higher league to stay because the working conditions at his current club are great. Look at Potter. At Brighton- fabulous club under Tony Bloom, all he could ask for in terms of great working environment. Chelsea come- he’s gone. Why? More money, better players etc. Brighton to Chelsea is a bit different! For most its like any job - not all people would leave their current job if they got offered a wage increase. They'd take other stuff into consideration too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 1 minute ago, nzlatic said: Brighton to Chelsea is a bit different! For most its like any job - not all people would leave their current job if they got offered a wage increase. They'd take other stuff into consideration too. It’s not- in fact it’s more pertinent the lower you go. £20k a week to 100k is amazing. £750 a week to £1500 a week is far more pressing/needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_R Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 44 minutes ago, League one forever said: Agreed. But seeing a future- actually means money. Managers talk a good game about building a club, but as soon as someone offers more- they’re gone. Or he’s going back to the club and saying can you match that- and then you’ve got them holding the club to ransom. Infrastructure should be good, so it brings money into the club and provides a good working environment. That’s where it ends. It’s then over to the incumbent manger to get results. You're probably right. In reality I don't blame managers for leaving a club when another offer comes along, as they know they're only a bad run away from the sack wherever they are, as our new bloke will no doubt find out. We still have to create the right environment to give them, and us, the best possible chance though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, League one forever said: It’s not- in fact it’s more pertinent the lower you go. £20k a week to 100k is amazing. £750 a week to £1500 a week is far more pressing/needed. I think we're straying into the standard online trap here, where we're both not quite getting the other one's point but both stubbornly sticking to our guns anyway! If we were talking about this in a pub then we'd probably realised we're not that far apart after about 5 minutes and move on to discussing how much game time Harry Vaughan should be getting or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I think we're straying into the standard online trap here, where we're both not quite getting the other one's point but both stubbornly sticking to our guns anyway! If we were talking about this in a pub then we'd probably realised we're not that far apart after about 5 minutes and move on to discussing how much game time Harry Vaughan should be getting or something. Aye- probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 45 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I think we're straying into the standard online trap here, where we're both not quite getting the other one's point but both stubbornly sticking to our guns anyway! If we were talking about this in a pub then we'd probably realised we're not that far apart after about 5 minutes and move on to discussing how much game time Harry Vaughan should be getting or something. 40 minutes ago, League one forever said: Aye- probably. Wait I'm confused. You've come to a polite and sensible understanding which is mutually respectful and open to neither being wrong. Well fuck guys! Who do I ban now?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 While the infrastructure is being sorted, we need to be getting the best out of what we’ve got. Frank et al have made a great start at boardroom level (fan’s bar, fixing bits in and around the ground, prayer room, etc), but we need to be doing that on the pitch as well, which we haven’t been doing. A change of manager and tactics now probably isn’t going to set us up for the long-term, but it might improve the use of resources that we currently have available… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarddog73 Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 17 minutes ago, JoeP said: While the infrastructure is being sorted, we need to be getting the best out of what we’ve got. Frank et al have made a great start at boardroom level (fan’s bar, fixing bits in and around the ground, prayer room, etc), but we need to be doing that on the pitch as well, which we haven’t been doing. A change of manager and tactics now probably isn’t going to set us up for the long-term, but it might improve the use of resources that we currently have available… Ya can't polish a turd....whose to say Shez wasn't getting the best out of them? They might just be really shit unprofessional raffle winners stealing a living masquerading as footballers, we have about half a dozen you'd build a team around the rest should be fucked off the day Shez walks out of the building because frankly they are either not good enough or have little desire to acheive, some even suffer from both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 3 hours ago, League one forever said: Dowie/Shez/LJ all proved you can win games without proper infrastructure. Hold up. Is this the same man who said nobody could succeed under the previous owners...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 25 minutes ago, yarddog73 said: Ya can't polish a turd....whose to say Shez wasn't getting the best out of them? They might just be really shit unprofessional raffle winners stealing a living masquerading as footballers, we have about half a dozen you'd build a team around the rest should be fucked off the day Shez walks out of the building because frankly they are either not good enough or have little desire to acheive, some even suffer from both. Well, a lot of them are Shez’s signings supposedly so we need a manager who can get better players with the budget we’ve got.. A lot of them have already had decent careers in the game - if they were as bad as they have been performing, I reckon someone at some point would’ve said to them “look, have you thought of a different career at all?” It’s also been fairly obvious that there’s some truth to the little tactics/research on the opposition theory. That costs very little, I would think.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 6 minutes ago, Lee Sinnott said: Hold up. Is this the same man who said nobody could succeed under the previous owners...? Yep. Where have you been. . . There is a massive difference between Corney and AL. One didn’t have the money to build the infrastructure, but tried his best to get the best players he could afford and left managers alone. The other employed his brother to systematically destroy the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 6 minutes ago, League one forever said: Yep. Where have you been. . . There is a massive difference between Corney and AL. One didn’t have the money to build the infrastructure, but tried his best to get the best players he could afford and left managers alone. The other employed his brother to systematically destroy the club. Employing Keith Curle destroyed the club more than anything, the useless City turd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts2 Posted September 16, 2022 Share Posted September 16, 2022 2 hours ago, League one forever said: It’s not about what is acceptable, it’s just the reality. I’d wager no manager would ever turn down more money and a higher league to stay because the working conditions at his current club are great. Look at Potter. At Brighton- fabulous club under Tony Bloom, all he could ask for in terms of great working environment. Chelsea come- he’s gone. Why? More money, better players etc. Errrr a certain mr J Royle of this parish turned down moves to much bigger clubs whilst here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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