Fans Forum

[Ackey]

1 hour ago, JoeP said:

The improvement it's made to our recruitment is negligible at best.  If you have to work that hard to get it to work for you, I doubt it's worth the time and effort.

 

I see there's talk of VAR being scrapped.  Maybe some of these new-fangled technologies aren't as good as we're told.

Or maybe we're just ill-equipped to use them? 

 

If we're putting in technology in place of people - mistake. If we're putting in people and ignoring technology - mistake. We need someone who can understand the blending of the two and lead the organisation as a whole through that modernisation and tweak things to get the best of the people supported by technology, or the best of the technology to eventually replace people. You can't just shout "STATSBOMB" in to an empty room and get a team, equally to ignore what technology can do and claim to be better without it will leave you behind.

 

Horses became cars. People became computers. We still have people and horses, we just don't use them the way we did before, nor in the same volume. 

[Dave_Og]

5 minutes ago, disjointed said:

Yet every club moans about it. 

 

Maybe what it would take would be a pledge from the media not to analyse every single decision to within an inch of its life.  That'll happen...

[Pidge]

1 hour ago, JoeP said:

 

The improvement it's made to our recruitment is negligible at best.  If you have to work that hard to get it to work for you, I doubt it's worth the time and effort.

 

I see there's talk of VAR being scrapped.  Maybe some of these new-fangled technologies aren't as good as we're told.

Seriously, what can be wrong with slowing the action down and seeing it from multiple angles?

Simple answer, it shows when referees get it wrong!
 

I feel the Refs we’re the ones who hated the fact that it embarrassed them and made them nervous to make decisions.

 

The solution the referees came up with is the real problem and needs a review.  They changed the Terms of Reference for VAR from “detecting mistakes”, to “detecting bad mistakes”.  So now we have VAR assessing the severity of the mistake, not just assessing if the decision was right or wrong. Hence we leave everyone having a justified opinion. Wolves can point out the referees made a mistake, but that wasn’t what VAR were primarily doing. They were deciding if the mistake was justified in some way.

 

[JoeP]

21 minutes ago, Ackey said:

Or maybe we're just ill-equipped to use them? 

 

If we're putting in technology in place of people - mistake. If we're putting in people and ignoring technology - mistake. We need someone who can understand the blending of the two and lead the organisation as a whole through that modernisation and tweak things to get the best of the people supported by technology, or the best of the technology to eventually replace people. You can't just shout "STATSBOMB" in to an empty room and get a team, equally to ignore what technology can do and claim to be better without it will leave you behind.

 

Horses became cars. People became computers. We still have people and horses, we just don't use them the way we did before, nor in the same volume. 

 

Yep, fair comments.

 

But, I can see how something like Statsbomb can be used by someone like Arsenal who have massive resources, create a whole recruitment team to use it and then sign a dozen players in the hope one turns into a multi-million pound super-star, but we don't have that margin of error.  Everyone we sign has to pretty much be spot on.

 

It might be useful for us one day, but I think simplicity should be the name of the game for us at the moment.  It hasn't worked well for us so far and there's some urgency for us to get back into the EFL, so keep it simple.  Let Mellon sign the players the way he used to during his 5 promotions that get us nearer to "what good looks like" (rather than what the stats say good looks like) and embrace the new technology when the situation might allow us to have a margin of error.

[Dave_Og]

15 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

Yep, fair comments.

 

But, I can see how something like Statsbomb can be used by someone like Arsenal who have massive resources, create a whole recruitment team to use it and then sign a dozen players in the hope one turns into a multi-million pound super-star, but we don't have that margin of error.  Everyone we sign has to pretty much be spot on.

 

It might be useful for us one day, but I think simplicity should be the name of the game for us at the moment.  It hasn't worked well for us so far and there's some urgency for us to get back into the EFL, so keep it simple.  Let Mellon sign the players the way he used to during his 5 promotions that get us nearer to "what good looks like" (rather than what the stats say good looks like) and embrace the new technology when the situation might allow us to have a margin of error.

 

Don't stats reduce the margin of error?  For some players, not all.  I'm not a big advocate of stats for the fan - I couldn't care less about XG, possession, successful passes etc.. as the are not contextualised but for those with the knowledge to interpret them properly they simply have to be useful.  As long as they don't take over.

[JoeP]

15 minutes ago, Dave_Og said:

 

Don't stats reduce the margin of error?  For some players, not all.  I'm not a big advocate of stats for the fan - I couldn't care less about XG, possession, successful passes etc.. as the are not contextualised but for those with the knowledge to interpret them properly they simply have to be useful.  As long as they don't take over.

 

I mean possibly, but as I say it doesn't seem to have worked for us so far.

 

I might be way off, but our squad from last season seemed to consist of some decent individuals that didn't work as a team.  To me that seems like stats might have been overused (Player X has Attribute X, so MUST be good in position X!).

 

As I've said elsewhere, I think we're lacking characters, not players with decent stats.  Could statbomb be used to pick the right personalities?  I don't know (and neither does anyone else!), but it seems to be a slightly unnecessary step that takes the human aspect out of it.

 

Let Mellon recruit like he's always done.  Surely that's why we appointed him - to recruit the way he has done in the past in the way that's got him promotion.  If he wants to use Statbomb, fine - but he should be sacked and sacked again if it doesn't work, when he's had success doing it without this sort of stuff in the past.

 

Edited May 16 by JoeP

[Dave_Og]

6 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

I mean possibly, but as I say it doesn't seem to have worked for us so far.

 

I might be way off, but our squad from last season seemed to consist of some decent individuals that didn't work as a team.  To me that seems like stats might have been overused (Player X has Attribute X, so MUST be good in position X!).

 

As I've said elsewhere, I think we're lacking characters, not players with decent stats.  Could statbomb be used to pick the right personalities?  I don't know (and neither does anyone else!), but it seems to be a slightly unnecessary step that takes the human aspect out of it.

 

Let Mellon recruit like he's always done.  Surely that's why we appointed him - to recruit the way he has done in the past in the way that's got him promotion.  If he wants to use Statbomb, fine - but he should be sacked and sacked again if it doesn't work, when he's had success doing it without this sort of stuff in the past.

 

 

Don't disagree in principle but we must be open to new developments.  I'm spectacularly unconvinced by Mellon but accept that he needs a proper run at it with his own players

[trickyrickyholden]

I head up a team of analysts in my day job. 

Data can enhance the vast majority of enterprises. Where it falls down is either:

Senior leadership not buying into the output 

Analysts not been very good at thier job.

Sometimes the 2 are linked!!

 

As Ackey eluded to. If you have good data, a good analytical functional (one analyst should suffice for latics) working in lockstep with other functions  (scouting/management/leadership) then it should be very effective.

 

Problem is good analysts who can communicate with other humans are rare as a ltics promotion campaign.

Edited May 17 by trickyrickyholden

[BP1960]

3 hours ago, trickyrickyholden said:

I head upma team of analysts in my day job. 

Data can enhance the vast majority of enterprises. Where it falls down is either:

Senior leadership not buying into the output 

Analysts not been very good at thier job.

Sometimes the 2 are linked!!

 

As Ackey eluded to. If you have good data, a good analytical functional (one analyst should suffice for latics) working in lockstep with other functions  (scouting/management/leadership) then it should be very effective.

 

Problem is good analysts who can communicate with other humans are rare as a ltics promotion campaign.

 

Show me a database where it could highlight 3 players Iike I recommended from Sunday League teams who went on to have excellent careers in the EFL Championship.

Edited May 16 by BP1960

[Crusoe]

BP, surely you recognise (as Ackey says) that using technology and data with people is the way to go?
 

Your post makes it sound like you see no value at all in data or stats or anything more advanced than a clipboard. 
 

Which would be, of course, a view you’re entitled to, and I don’t question your actual lived experience.

 

But if every major club in the world is employing tech and data as part of their scouting, doesn’t that suggest they know something and it’s not quite that simple?

[BP1960]

35 minutes ago, Crusoe said:

BP, surely you recognise (as Ackey says) that using technology and data with people is the way to go?
 

Your post makes it sound like you see no value at all in data or stats or anything more advanced than a clipboard. 
 

Which would be, of course, a view you’re entitled to, and I don’t question your actual lived experience.

 

But if every major club in the world is employing tech and data as part of their scouting, doesn’t that suggest they know something and it’s not quite that simple?

 

Stats can tell you only so much, they are a tool that can be used as indicators of past history, however, as far as footballers are concerned they can't tell you of the future potential of lower level players, which is what I look for. Take out the human element and you might as well leave it to A! alone - and we can see the dangerous path that is leading to in society. Maybe in the long term future robots will be actually playing the game (perhaps not so far out as we saw from some of Latics performances last season). 

I'll give you an example I saw Tony Naylor play Sunday League at the age of 23, no stats bombs in the world would have recommended him to an EFL club, yet he turned  out to be a prolific goal scorer. When I watched him I and could see  he would fill out his small frame and had technical ability better than many FL players. He only got into the  EFL after scoring an hat trick for Droylsden against Crewe in a pre season friendly - who promptly signed him after the match.

Send me the stats bombs and if they match what I see in ability and desire you will have star on your hands.

Edited May 16 by BP1960

[Crusoe]

Fair enough. I don’t think anyone here was suggesting all-tech, all-data, no-humans was the answer though.

[BP1960]

35 minutes ago, Crusoe said:

Fair enough. I don’t think anyone here was suggesting all-tech, all-data, no-humans was the answer though.

 

It's getting that way in society though, humans are hardly needed by some companies any more. I was in Boots at Rochdale the other day and it was all self service tills, not one human check out, nor any security staff, and they wonder why shoplifting is at an an all time high.

I have used stats in the old days to check players background, height, weight, positions  and goal ratios, but always followed up - even when every box was ticked.  It's folly IMO to sign old players who hadn't played much for the last 2 years just because his stats looked good back then, you need to see them play recently.

 

Edited May 16 by BP1960

[TheBigDog]

8 hours ago, JoeP said:

I see there's talk of VAR being scrapped.  Maybe some of these new-fangled technologies aren't as good as we're told.

 

7 hours ago, Dave_Og said:

No chance of that vote (which needs 14 PL clubs to agree) of getting through

But it could lead to a much needed overhaul as the result of Wolves submitting the resolution….

[Worcester Owl]

 Swedish clubs sensibly voted to reject VAR, though there they have the 50+1 fan ownership model.

Edited May 16 by Worcester Owl

[trickyrickyholden]

4 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

Show me a database where it could highlight 3 players Iike I recommended from Sunday League teams who went on to have excellent careers in the EFL Championship.

I cannot because it doesn't exist. 

 

I imagine the vast majority of recruitment isn't of obscure Sunday league players though.

 

I did call out that I think scouts are part of the mix didn't I?

[Dave_Og]

16 minutes ago, trickyrickyholden said:

I cannot because it doesn't exist. 

 

I imagine the vast majority of recruitment isn't of obscure Sunday league players though.

 

I did call out that I think scouts are part of the mix didn't I?

It's binary apparently...

[BP1960]

18 minutes ago, trickyrickyholden said:

I cannot because it doesn't exist. 

 

I imagine the vast majority of recruitment isn't of obscure Sunday league players though.

 

I did call out that I think scouts are part of the mix didn't I?

 

Yet the North West and East Counties league have produced many players who have gone on to play at a higher level, even Chadderton had a couple. 

Nothing better than finding a non league gem for me.

I see Altrincham have just signed one from the NWCL. I know their scout and bet the lad will come good.

Edited May 16 by BP1960

[jsslatic]

3 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

It's getting that way in society though, humans are hardly needed by some companies any more. I was in Boots at Rochdale the other day and it was all self service tills, not one human check out, nor any security staff, and they wonder why shoplifting is at an an all time high.

I have used stats in the old days to check players background, height, weight, positions  and goal ratios, but always followed up - even when every box was ticked.  It's folly IMO to sign old players who hadn't played much for the last 2 years just because his stats looked good back then, you need to see them play recently.

 

 

That is what has been happening, man.

 

In fact the statistics will no doubt be even more helpful than whatever an arbitrary stat about weight is.

 

You are just making stuff up and getting angry about it.

 

For your own sake enjoy your summer and stop getting wound about things that aren't happening.

 

[mcfluff1985]

11 hours ago, JoeP said:

 

I mean possibly, but as I say it doesn't seem to have worked for us so far.

 

 

 

Maybe you're looking at it in the wrong way. Maybe think that if we hadn't used StatsBomb our signings would have been much worse...

 

 

7 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

Show me a database where it could highlight 3 players Iike I recommended from Sunday League teams who went on to have excellent careers in the EFL Championship.

What a ridiculous response to the well reasoned comments above

[BP1960]

3 hours ago, jsslatic said:

 

That is what has been happening, man.

 

In fact the statistics will no doubt be even more helpful than whatever an arbitrary stat about weight is.

 

You are just making stuff up and getting angry about it.

 

For your own sake enjoy your summer and stop getting wound about things that aren't happening.

 

 

I know what I'm doing, it's happening and you are closing your eyes to it.

Some people think everything new is great, look at VAR a typical example of meddling for medias sake.

My feet are well and truly on the ground and always have been.

 

 

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

8 hours ago, BP1960 said:

Take out the human element and you might as well leave it to A! alone - and we can see the dangerous path that is leading to in society.

Well I’m always polite to Alexa in our house. That’ll be considered by our robot overlords when they eventually take over the world. I won’t be taken out to a field and laser-gunned in the back of the head.

[BP1960]

2 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

Well I’m always polite to Alexa in our house. That’ll be considered by our robot overlords when they eventually take over the world. I won’t be taken out to a field and laser-gunned in the back of the head.

 

Westworld, Yul Bryner rebelled  didn't he. 

 

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

4 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Westworld, Yul Bryner rebelled  didn't he. 

 

and look what happened to him. No thank you. AND I never poked fun out of CP30 either. You’re right. Most of the world will be fucked. Not me though.

[Londonboy]

16 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

Show me a database where it could highlight 3 players Iike I recommended from Sunday League teams who went on to have excellent careers in the EFL Championship.

Be interesting to know how many recommendations you have made over the years that have been ignored or were just poor recommendations. 

If I bet on most horses in a race I'm more likely to get the odd winner!

Humans regularly get things very wrong due to differing opinions or judgements. Stats help put some ballance on things over a period of time and are based on facts.

Using a combination of both is probably the most effective, and although will probably still have a relatively high failure rate, it will likely be more productive than watching someone once and giving the thumbs up....but you are probably right and the rest of the football world wrong....