The EU referendum - 23rd June

[losesome]

Ask yourself the opposite question which may give you the answer.

IF we were voting to join the EU in its current state how would you vote????

Ask countries like Greece & Spain how the EU protects jobs where unemployment rates are huge.

Only 6% of companies export to the EU and we import 3 times more from them so any tariffs they put on us can be reciprocated.

VOTE OUT as this will be the only chance we have.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

Ask yourself the opposite question which may give you the answer.

IF we were voting to join the EU in its current state how would you vote????

Ask countries like Greece & Spain how the EU protects jobs where unemployment rates are huge.

Only 6% of companies export to the EU and we import 3 times more from them so any tariffs they put on us can be reciprocated.

VOTE OUT as this will be the only chance we have.

 

If we hadn't joined when we did, we'd have been :censored:ed.

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

My attention is turning to what happens on Friday morning. Before we know the result, the Tory leavers will be saying, "We love Dave really. This stuff about him being a liar and such was just campaign banter."

 

If we vote to stay in, Cameron has promised to let bygones be bygones and open up the doors to his broad church, but some things can't be unsaid, such as when Osborne promised the punishment budget. Do the Tories have a working majority in any scenario, and if so how? I'd have more respect for him if he made a series of phone calls along the lines of, "My office, first thing Monday. Bring your trade union rep."

 

Anyone fancy another referendum, or perhaps a general election?

[mcfluff1985]

 

If we hadn't joined when we did, we'd have been :censored:ed.

Maybe we wouldn't. Nobody knows

[GlossopLatic]

My attention is turning to what happens on Friday morning. Before we know the result, the Tory leavers will be saying, "We love Dave really. This stuff about him being a liar and such was just campaign banter."

 

If we vote to stay in, Cameron has promised to let bygones be bygones and open up the doors to his broad church, but some things can't be unsaid, such as when Osborne promised the punishment budget. Do the Tories have a working majority in any scenario, and if so how? I'd have more respect for him if he made a series of phone calls along the lines of, "My office, first thing Monday. Bring your trade union rep."

 

Anyone fancy another referendum, or perhaps a general election?

An emergency budget would likely lead to a cut in corporation tax to try and keep the foreign companies in Britain a drop in the top rate of income tax to keep the top talent in the city and a further slashing of public spending cuts. According to the tax partner at one of the top 6 accountancy firms.

 

Oh and a general election between Boris and Corbyn makes the choice between Trump abd Hilary look a wonderful choice.

Edited June 22, 2016 by GlossopLatic

[24hoursfromtulsehill]

An emergency budget would likely lead to a cut in corporation tax to try and keep the foreign companies in Britain a drop in the top rate of income tax to keep the top talent in the city and a further slashing of public spending cuts. According to the tax partner at one of the top 6 accountancy firms.

 

Oh and a general election between Boris and Corbyn makes the choice between Trump abd Hilary look a wonderful choice.

All of those things are in play. That partner in the accountancy firm is obviously a proper in-the-know. ;-/

[GlossopLatic]

It's all going to come down to the 9% who are undecided by the look of the latest polls.

[al_bro]

Its a no brainer for me.

 

STAY.

 

How can we support ourselves when we have no backbone industry.Foreign companies either bought out our home grown companies or own many of the factories that provide work.The main reason they are involved in our country is because they are after a foothold in the European market.If we withdraw, all the resources that get shipped in as well as exporting the finished product, will be subject to duty, and this will push up costs.If we leave, what's to stop these companies from shutting shop and shipping off to the continent to reduce costs?

 

Answer:NOTHING.

 

Today, we have the best employment figures we've ever had. We have a minimum wage which is steadily increasing, 0% inflation, in contrast to the early 70's where we had 3day weeks, power cuts and high inflation.

 

If we leave Britain will be like a high st. shop competing against giant retail stores, and end up like BHS, screwed up and shafted.

 

The leave campaigners keep quoting Dyson for British success, Dyson :censored:ed this country off so he could line his pockets in China.And what the :censored:s Boris Johnson got to do with this debate? NOTHING. He's apolitical nobody, he doesn't even hold any political position as far as I know, he's only the ex-mayor of London.

 

The leavers only seem concerned about immigration, if this is true, then all they have to say NO. Enough is enough,:censored: off, go away.

 

 

Find some other way of solving the problem.You don't chop your leg off because your toe hurts.If things go tits up after we've left,we won't be able to rejoin.Unification is the future.The problems we have now is because too many new members are joining in too short a time.

 

JUST SAY NO

 

Vote remain.Find another solution.

The EU has paid for companies to close factories in this country to enable the company involved to move elsewhere.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Do you still believe we are better off in.

Isn't immigration a concern for you when you need to build a city the size of Leicester every year.

Our own laws made by a democratically elected government can be repealed by the ECJ whenever they like.

EU laws are made by 28 unelected commissioners and rubber stamped by the EU parliament, and n turn rubber stamped by our parliament.

We pay £10bn net to EU. When they have mismanaged and wasted that, they come demanding another £2bn every year, which they will do when this referendum is out of the way. Remember Cameron having a hissy fit about it, and saying we are not paying, only to meekly pay up in full a couple of weeks later.

VOTE LEAVE IT'S THE ONLY SENSIBLE THING TO DO TO ENABLE US TO RUN OUR OWN COUNTRY OUR WAY. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PARTY IN CHARGE, YOU CAN GET RID OF IT AT THE NEXT ELECTION. NOT SO WITH THE EU.

[GlossopLatic]

All of those things are in play. That partner in the accountancy firm is obviously a proper in-the-know. ;-/

He predicted it in about April. He may well be in the know.

Edited June 22, 2016 by GlossopLatic

[HarryBosch]

I trust a few of you will be sincere enough to change your mind on the back of these these bits of news....

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-reform-uk-brexit-vote-live-remain-jean-claude-juncker-european-union-a7095601.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

[piglinbland]

http://buff.ly/28KpKbZ

[GlossopLatic]

I trust a few of you will be sincere enough to change your mind on the back of these these bits of news....

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-reform-uk-brexit-vote-live-remain-jean-claude-juncker-european-union-a7095601.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

Yes we should definitely listen to those 2 who both believe the UK should stay in the EU

[Fyldelatic]

I will stick my neck out and predict a clear win for remain, by the margin of 55% to 45%, similar to the Scottish referendum. I see there is a late surge in the value of the pound tonight, and betting shows one of the shortest odds for remain since the campaign started, at 1/5. Better the devil you know!

[leeslover]

I guess that's about it. See you on the other side folks!

[leeslover]

Close to 2m tall

[joe_lead]

I would like England to vote Leave but for the rest of the U.K. Remain votes to give Remain the overall victory. Then the Tories will tear themselves apart and it will then be interesting to see if England demand Independence fro both UK and Europe. if everyone votes Remain it will simply be business as usual

[tringerlatic42]

Iam IN
Why?
Staying
Economics- everyone in business saying leave would be a disaster- any evidence YES- £30 bn wiped off share values on a day when leave got ahead and a drop in the pound- then a complete surge back when remain inched back
Immigration- Yes a good thing for UK helps to fund health service and other public services
Workers’ Rights- Far better protected in EU – give control to the right wing and it will be a massive step back
Security- Much stronger in a team
Peace- We have a long period of peace since the union and it was one of the original reasons for creating the common market

Jo Cox- So much passion for fairness and justice and paid such a price

Leaving

They have some reasonable points but have chosen instead to promote a campaign of lies- still quoting ridiculous scare stuff – amount of contribution, scare stories about 77m Turks invading etc.

Economics- Not a clue apart from – we are Britain- Oh and James Dyson says we should leave- so he knows better than better than the thousands of other businessmen and economists?
Immigration- No solutions offered- anyone who has looked at the Australian system would soon see it would be unworkable here.
Supporters- Putin- one of the evilest leaders in the world- supporting for our good?
Donald Trump- A man of judgement?
Daily (Hate) Mail
Farage

 

I could never vote along side of odious charcters like the above

 

24 hrs mentioned Boris v Corbyn- a true horror story in the making - please God No!

[blueatheart]

 

Weak argument...

 

Cameron - Prime Minister

Osborn - Chancellor of exchequer

Majority of the Tory Cabinate (ruling party)

Majority of the Tory Party (ruling party - I think going off the rough numbers I have seen)

Corybn - Leader of the Labour Party

Farron - Leader of the Lib Dems

Bennett - Leader of the Greens

Sturgeon - Leader of the SNP

Khan - Mayor of London

 

All for Remain

 

While its technically true remain is not a party.... the idea the remain side won't retain massive political power if they win is weak... they are accountable... Leave are not...

 

I would suggest the hurdles to Boris, Gove, IDS and Farage gaining power if they win and being in the position to give things they have promised like no VAT on fuel is extremely difficult.

 

Do you honestly disagree ?

 

Sounds like you are a sheep. You would rather listen to politicians and people who have vested interests in the outcome than go and do your own research.

 

and as for this:

 

 

the idea the remain side won't retain massive political power if they win is weak... they are accountable...

Even more reason to vote leave.

 

All these issues about workers rights, tax on this or that, EU funding dropped from projects etc, the remain side will be able to legislate to replace the EU directives with their own.

 

As you say, the remain side won't just disapper.

[Crusoe]

I love the idea that one of the most socially divisive and destructive British governments in history would willingly introduce legislation on workers' rights, human rights, fund the same range of social improvements projects, etc.

[Crusoe]

On a different note, I'll be interested to see what impact the result has on the Conservatives and UKIP.

 

If the result is leave, I can't see how Cameron can remain. He's nailed his colours to the mast. Any credibility he had with his party will vanish. I suspect the party would more or less hold together, maybe a few going independent.

 

If the result is remain, I can see the Conservatives descending into civil war. Defections to UKIP? A split into two parties?

 

If the result is leave, what do UKIP do next? They have disproportionate media presence for their political size, and if this happens what else do they campaign on and will anyone feel the need to support them versus the Conservatives?

 

If the result is remain, while I'd love to think it would mean UKIP saying "fair enough, you chose differently so clearly we're barking up the wrong tree, we'll go away quietly now" but I think we'll end up with a lot more vitriol and noise about vote rigging, etc.

[blueatheart]

I love the idea that one of the most socially divisive and destructive British governments in history would willingly introduce legislation on workers' rights, human rights, fund the same range of social improvements projects, etc.

 

Bah, same arguement as the Scottish independance referendum. Just becuase there is a Tory government now doesn't mean there won't be a labour one in 2020, should they actually be able to sort a decent leadership team out.

 

Even so, Tories on the remain side have idolised the rights you desribe as a positive part of the EU. As many politicians have found out during this campaign, things you say years before can come back to bite you. They won't have a choice or they will lose in 2020. This decision is bigger than this government or this prime minister.

 

On a different note, I'll be interested to see what impact the result has on the Conservatives and UKIP.

 

If the result is leave, I can't see how Cameron can remain. He's nailed his colours to the mast. Any credibility he had with his party will vanish. I suspect the party would more or less hold together, maybe a few going independent.

 

If the result is remain, I can see the Conservatives descending into civil war. Defections to UKIP? A split into two parties?

 

If the result is leave, what do UKIP do next? They have disproportionate media presence for their political size, and if this happens what else do they campaign on and will anyone feel the need to support them versus the Conservatives?

 

If the result is remain, while I'd love to think it would mean UKIP saying "fair enough, you chose differently so clearly we're barking up the wrong tree, we'll go away quietly now" but I think we'll end up with a lot more vitriol and noise about vote rigging, etc.

 

Cameron and Osbourne cannot survive long. I suspect the Tory party will continue but fractured. On UKIP though, if Brexit happens what will UKIP actually be? They will have acheived their aim. Even if they do have a much wider manifesto (I'll admit, I haven't read it), then their name and main slogan "UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY" would be rendered null and void.

 

I disagree with UKIP have disproportionate media presence, at least not now. They had 3.8 million votes which is 2.4 million more than the SNP. Forget seats in parliament, whether you like it or not, UKIP are the third party of the UK.

Edited June 23, 2016 by blueatheart

[mikejh45]

"Iam IN

Why?

Staying

Economics- everyone in business saying leave would be a disaster- any evidence YES- £30 bn wiped off share values on a day when leave got ahead and a drop in the pound- then a complete surge back when remain inched back

Immigration- Yes a good thing for UK helps to fund health service and other public services

Workers’ Rights- Far better protected in EU – give control to the right wing and it will be a massive step back

Security- Much stronger in a team

Peace- We have a long period of peace since the union and it was one of the original reasons for creating the common market

Jo Cox- So much passion for fairness and justice and paid such a price

Leaving

They have some reasonable points but have chosen instead to promote a campaign of lies- still quoting ridiculous scare stuff – amount of contribution, scare stories about 77m Turks invading etc.

Economics- Not a clue apart from – we are Britain- Oh and James Dyson says we should leave- so he knows better than better than the thousands of other businessmen and economists?

Immigration- No solutions offered- anyone who has looked at the Australian system would soon see it would be unworkable here.

Supporters- Putin- one of the evilest leaders in the world- supporting for our good?

Donald Trump- A man of judgement?

Daily (Hate) Mail

Farage

 

I could never vote along side of odious charcters like the above

 

24 hrs mentioned Boris v Corbyn- a true horror story in the making - please God No!"

 

 

 

I've voted out and having read the above, simplistic :censored:e I'm more than happy with my decision.

1) Not everyone is saying it will be a disaster. If you did some research, you would find there are many companies (more than Dyson), including retail, financial and manufacturing,who state clearly we will survive outside the EU. Businesses within the EU will still trade with us because the will is there. We have growth in this country DESPITE the EU not because of it.

The EU is corrupt and failing. Corrupt, because, for the 21st year in a row it has not had audited books signed off. Failing, because nothing is being done to sort out Greece apart from piling more debt which appears to be at the insistence of Germany and the Central Bank.

3) Security & Peace.....It's NATO that has kept Europe safe.

4) Jo Cox.....you shouldn't be point scoring over the murder of a talented individual by someone who has known, serious mental health issues.

5) Immigration. You make it sound as if there isn't a problem in Europe. Look around and you will see that many countries are closing their external borders but have started to pull back from the Schengen agreement and all brought about Merkel and her open door policy that affected every neighbouring country without their approval. Suffice to say, there is a problem and if Leave win, a solution will be found.....and that will be the British system....a system that works in the best interests for this country.

 

As for scare stories, we've heard about plenty from Cameron and Osborne because they know that if Leave win, they are both facing the back benches.

 

I've put my points as a response to the above but they are my thoughts/opinions.

 

To all those who are undecided......stand up and make a decision and vote, either way......this is not a day, and this is too important, for apathy

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by mikejh45

[disjointed]

As this draws to a close can I just say this topic has been well debated for the most part. Strong opinions from both sides with a reasonable amount of level headedness, perhaps some of our politicians could take a few tips. It will be interesting to see how the vote pans out in relation to the poll on here. It's a remain from me, think of the kids it is their future above some of us older ones.

[opinions4u]

Last six votes cast here have all been remain.

 

My forecast was 51/49 remain.

 

Based on owtb late voting intentions I'm now going 54/46.

[LaticsPete]

I've pledged £10 to Playershare if it's a Remain win.

Anybody from the Out side want to match that if they win?