BPAS PODCAST: 11th Dec '23, S4E20: There's Work To Do

[BPAS]

When the performance was as bad as Saturday's weather, you know it was BAD. Latics scraped past Mickleover on pens and that's about as positive as it gets.

 

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[GlossopLatic]

So Freeman Hogan Gardner Green Shelton and Nuttall all told to move on interesting. Slightly surprising considering some are currently in the side at the moment but at the same time not surprising I think we will make a fair bit of saving here even if we can get half of them off the books.

[TheBigDog]

5 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said:

So Freeman Hogan Gardner Green Shelton and Nuttall all told to move on interesting. Slightly surprising considering some are currently in the side at the moment but at the same time not surprising I think we will make a fair bit of saving here even if we can get half of them off the books.

 

A note of caution:

Of the above six names. only Nuttall has been confirmed -  the surprise (for me) name in there is Hogan - he was useless at right back on Saturday but is a decent centre back. Maybe (if true) it's because we have Hobson & Raglan plus Sutton to step up?

 

Freeman will go as he is only on a short term contract.

 

 

[League one forever]

If the Rumour mill is true.
 

Freeman is easy- he’ll go in Jan.

Gardener/Hogan/Green are all up at the end of the season, and I’d be happy to let them all go for different reasons. 

 

That’s four wages saved. 
 

Then it gets tricky. 

Shelton and Nuttal (the worst two of the six)  are on contracts until 2025. . . they won’t get what they’re earning here, so if we can’t move them on- then the pay off will be hefty and ultimately it will effect next years budget. 
 

Quite depressing when you think of the economic reality. 
 

 

[JoeP]

I wonder who has decided the length of contract offered to signings?  The Recruitment department?  The manager? The stats department??

 

We're getting burned a bit by length of contracts offered.  Too short and they can walk away for nothing, if they're decent (e.g: Yarney), too long and the player can become a bit of a millstone.

 

I'll repeat my opinion that we need to sack off this multi-department signing process and let the manager do it with a group of trusted scouts he can reply on.  It might work at the top where they can throw enough cash at staff and players to build a massive squad they can afford to pay, but I think it needs a different approach at this level.  The players are too inconsistent at this level for the stats to be reliable... 

[League one forever]

2 minutes ago, JoeP said:

We're getting burned a bit by length of contracts offered.  Too short and they can walk away for nothing, if they're decent (e.g: Yarney), too long and the player can become a bit of a millstone.

I really feel for the club here. 
 

Offer 1 year deals only- fans aren’t happy with them for not building anything and having to much rotation. 
 

Offer multi year deals, and fans aren’t happy for wasting money and the recruitment not being right. 

Personally I would only give Longer contracts to proven pedigree at a level you aspire to,  So Raglan and Norwood- yes. The likes of Tollitt and Shelton absolutely not. 

[deyres42]

If you want to attract good players you have to incentive them, as long as we can afford to fulfill the contracts then that is all that matters, even the best clubs sign duds along the way.

[Dave_Og]

8 minutes ago, League one forever said:

I really feel for the club here. 
 

Offer 1 year deals only- fans aren’t happy with them for not building anything and having to much rotation. 
 

Offer multi year deals, and fans aren’t happy for wasting money and the recruitment not being right. 

Personally I would only give Longer contracts to proven pedigree at a level you aspire to,  So Raglan and Norwood- yes. The likes of Tollitt and Shelton absolutely not. 

Shelton came from a higher level with a decent reputation 

[League one forever]

19 minutes ago, Dave_Og said:

Shelton came from a higher level with a decent reputation 

Mmmm. 
 

He went up with Salford to league two. After two months, he went straight back to the conference on loan to Woking and Hartlepool who he then signed for permanently. He helped them get promotion and had two seasons in league two. So one ambitious club got rid and a struggling club kept him. He was given a two and half year deal on the back of one good spell at a decent level. 
 

Meanwhile - Raglan turned down a contract in league one and Norwood has done it for years everywhere he’s been. There’s a big difference in calibre and pedigree. 

 

 

[Dave_Og]

7 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Mmmm. 
 

He went up with Salford to league two. After two months, he went straight back to the conference on loan to Woking and Hartlepool who he then signed for permanently. He helped them get promotion and had two seasons in league two. So one ambitious club got rid and a struggling club kept him. He was given a two and half year deal on the back of one good spell at a decent level. 
 

Meanwhile - Raglan turned down a contract in league one and Norwood has done it for years everywhere he’s been. There’s a big difference in calibre and pedigree. 

 

 

Certainly is with hindsight but his arrival was seen as something of a minor coup. Whereas Hobson has barely (ever?) played higher than where we are 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dave_Og

[League one forever]

50 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

If you want to attract good players you have to incentive them, as long as we can afford to fulfill the contracts then that is all that matters, even the best clubs sign duds along the way.

Agreed. 
 

But there’s a balance. 
 

Very few players should be getting anything beyond two years. Or if they do- the third year is an option.  That’s provides security for the player and some continuity for the club. 
 

Shelton got a straight two and half year deal, when his career had been mix of this league, lower leagues and one good spell in the division above at a struggling club. 
 

Tollit got a contract upgrade after being here four months and is now on loan at Kiddy. 
 

Some avoidable own goals there. 

[deyres42]

5 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Agreed. 
 

But there’s a balance. 
 

Very few players should be getting anything beyond two years. Or if they do- the third year is an option.  That’s provides security for the player and some continuity for the club. 
 

Shelton got a straight two and half year deal, when his career had been mix of this league, lower leagues and one good spell in the division above at a struggling club. 
 

Tollit got a contract upgrade after being here four months and is now on loan at Kiddy. 
 

Some avoidable own goals there. 

I think there is a player in there somewhere with Shelton but obviously his confidence is absolutely shot, playing alongside Sheron wouldn't help anyone so he has my sympathy.

 

Tollitt was a strange one, as indeed was the aforementioned Sheron.

[nzlatic]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it? 
 

Shelton has won promotion from this league twice. Nuttall scored 16 goals in this league last season. 
 

They haven’t worked out for us but we can be too one-eyed sometimes about players and judge them solely on their time in an Oldham shirt. Their agents shouldn’t have to work too hard to get a reasonable move based on their careers as a whole. 
 

Of Gardner, Green and Hogan I think we’d struggle to shift the first 2 before the end of the season. 

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

28 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Of Gardner, Green and Hogan I think we’d struggle to shift the first 2 before the end of the season. 

Well, we’ll certainly struggle to shift him with a bust fetlock. He’ll be here for the season I’d expect. Probably be benchwarming once fit again.

[League one forever]

31 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it? 
 

Shelton has won promotion from this league twice. Nuttall scored 16 goals in this league last season. 
 

They haven’t worked out for us but we can be too one-eyed sometimes about players and judge them solely on their time in an Oldham shirt. Their agents shouldn’t have to work too hard to get a reasonable move based on their careers as a whole. 
 

Of Gardner, Green and Hogan I think we’d struggle to shift the first 2 before the end of the season. 

Nuttal I understand- because proven goalscorer’s always cost the most either in wages or length of contact. They have clubs over a barell because someone will always pay it. 
 

This is Shelton’s level over a career average. (Which will have be known at the time) He was a good signing at the time, that warranted 18 months with an option. Instead he got a straight two and half years. Was he going to kick us on in league two - should we go up? The evidence said no, because Salford let him go.
 

Two and half years should be reserved for Strikers, Raglan type signing’s, (league one) or quick Re- negotiation for someone like Hobson- who it took about 3/4 games for us all to realise he’s the best defender at the club by county mile. 

[Dave_Og]

7 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Nuttal I understand- because proven goalscorer’s always cost the most either in wages or length of contact. They have clubs over a barell because someone will always pay it. 
 

This is Shelton’s level over a career average. (Which will have be known at the time) He was a good signing at the time, that warranted 18 months with an option. Instead he got a straight two and half years. Was he going to kick us on in league two - should we go up? The evidence said no, because Salford let him go.
 

Two and half years should be reserved for Strikers, Raglan type signing’s, (league one) or quick Re- negotiation for someone like Hobson- who it took about 3/4 games for us all to realise he’s the best defender at the club by county mile. 

But Hobson may not have been here in the first place without a decent  length of contract up front 

[League one forever]

1 minute ago, Dave_Og said:

But Hobson may not have been here in the first place without a decent  length of contract up front 

Hobson got two years in the summer. No problem there. 

[GlossopLatic]

We might not be able to get them all out the door quickly but if we move a couple out on loan and the other club pays even as just a small % of their salary then its money saved than can be used elsewhere.

 

The length of contract thing well that's always a risk regardless of the signing you've just try to find a way to mitigate that regardless I suppose that'd why these days good scouting, statistical analysis and general research and profiling of players is done so much more deeply these days. Even then you won't get it right but if the tools are available to do this job of looking at players then I say use them as it will lessen the chances of getting it wrong in the long run.

[Dave_Og]

16 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Hobson got two years in the summer. No problem there. 

Yes, but it would have been a problem if he'd not delivered and he didn't come from a higher level. It's all hindsight 

[nzlatic]

30 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Nuttal I understand- because proven goalscorer’s always cost the most either in wages or length of contact. They have clubs over a barell because someone will always pay it. 
 

This is Shelton’s level over a career average. (Which will have be known at the time) He was a good signing at the time, that warranted 18 months with an option. Instead he got a straight two and half years. Was he going to kick us on in league two - should we go up? The evidence said no, because Salford let him go.
 

Two and half years should be reserved for Strikers, Raglan type signing’s, (league one) or quick Re- negotiation for someone like Hobson- who it took about 3/4 games for us all to realise he’s the best defender at the club by county mile. 

Piergianni was also considered not good enough to take Salford forward but he’s got to league 1 quicker than they have.

 

I don’t remember too many complaints about the length of Shelton’s contract when he signed. He should be coming into his prime at his age. There’s definitely hindsight at play. Long contracts good when player works out, bad when it doesn’t. I’d rather us be giving longer contracts as on the whole it’ll help us attract better players. We just need to make sure our recruitment process is as good as it can be. 

[League one forever]

1 minute ago, Dave_Og said:

Yes, but it would have been a problem if he'd not delivered and he didn't come from a higher level. It's all hindsight 

Dave, where have you gone? 
 

I started by saying- you can’t give players one year deals because they won’t come. Two years is fair for the vast majority. Some will work- some won’t. However a third year should be reserved for the aforementioned type players and someone you really believe is going to be a massive player not just in this league but hopefully In the league above- so it’s worth tying them down. 
 

Shelton got two and half years and nothing about his career said he was THAT good. That isn’t hindsight- you even said he was seen as a ‘minor coup’  I’d agree. As was Hobson. So two years is enough. Anything beyond 2 years is for a major coup in my opinion. 

[League one forever]

18 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

We just need to make sure our recruitment process is as good as it can be. 

 

. . . which is exactly the point. Our choice of player, choice of position, choice of contract extension, contract length, has - at times been very poor. 
 

Magnus had done ok- contract extension. Now can’t get in the side. 
 

Sheron- I like, but you could argue didn’t set the world alight, contract extension.

 

Tollit- had a couple of really good games in the first few months- contract extension. Now out on loan. 
 

None of these players were so outstanding that it was in the clubs Interest to protect their investment. Again that isn’t hindsight, we all watched them- and none of them had absolute rave reviews by the majority. 
 

18 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Piergianni was also considered not good enough to take Salford forward but he’s got to league 1 quicker than they have

If our recruitment and retention was isolated to one player, I’d take your point- but as the above shows there’s been a lot of mismanagement in the playing budget. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by League one forever

[yarddog73]

Remember when I was getting pelters on here for suggesting our recruitment methods were unsustainable.

 

@League one forever makes some valid points but then uses Raglan as an example as a player who should be offered two or three year deals, this is exactly where our recruitment fell down after appearing to start off promising, Raglan on the face of it looked a top signing but he wasn't needed and so far he's played on the left of the two centre backs and looked uncomfortable to me particularly when he cuts infield, we already had Hogan, Hobson, Sutton, McGahey and Sheron with EFL experience in that position, it should never have been sanctioned. Six more than competent centrehalfs for our level is just ludicrous particularly when we can't field an adequate rightback half way in to the season and we'd be in much the same position on the left if Kitching ever broke down (God forbid).

 

I get it with Norwood and was staggered when we signed him but that could never have been the plan and after missing out on Dallas it looked to me as a bit of a marquee signing to wet the fans appetite but as a consequence Willoughby hasn't been given the chance so it makes his signing even more baffling given he thrives on game time and needs to be playing to see the best of him.

 

It's a mess and I'm pretty sure at least half a dozen have been offered around but there are no takers, whose going to take some of these we want rid of?, some are in last chance saloon already and still can't perform, Tollitt for instance has done nothing at Kidderminster and can't even get in their team now.

 

There has obviously been a decision made to turn off the money tap for transfers for now and rightly so in my opinion, on the flip side it's going to be the summer at least before we see any noticable changes which must be a massive frustration for Mellon and his team.

 

Cheers Dave, Thommo and Darren.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oafc1955]

2 hours ago, yarddog73 said:

 

There has obviously been a decision made to turn off the money tap for transfers for now

Actually, in the OASF interview last month Darren Royle did say there was still money available to MM for squad strengthening and that it was not entirely dependent on outgoing transfers. However, he did also say that a balancing of the books would be preferable and would allow for further additional signings.

 

I think the lack of movement could be that MM has targeted EFL players further up the pyramid which may have to wait for the January window.

 

As you say poor recruitment is what has killed us and I’m pretty sure that the likes of Raglan & Freeman were Unsworth panic buys and brought in purely for experience. They probably weren’t even scouted at all and just brought in based on their past performance and reputation.

 

Messrs Unsworth & Thompson have a lot to answer for regarding our current situation. We cannot afford any mistakes and as such our next few incoming signings will have to be spot on!!

[League one forever]

5 hours ago, yarddog73 said:

then uses Raglan as an example as a player who should be offered two or three year deals, this is exactly where our recruitment fell down after appearing to start off promising, Raglan on the face of it looked a top signing but he wasn't needed and so far he's played on the left of the two centre backs and looked uncomfortable to me particularly when he cuts infield, we already had Hogan, Hobson, Sutton, McGahey and Sheron with EFL experience in that position, it should never have been sanctioned. Six more than competent centrehalfs for our level is just ludicrous particularly when we can't field an adequate rightback half way in to the season and we'd be in much the same position on the left if Kitching ever broke down (God forbid).

Hogan has hardly played in the EFL

Sheron can play there but it’s not ideal. 
Maghey was recovering from a broken back at the time.

Sutton has relatively no experience at centre half because he’s been played out of position for 12 months. 
Hobson is class. 
 

To me the long term partnership is Raglan (and he was a major coup) and Hobson. 
 

I don’t look at him and think we shouldn’t go for top players, I look at people like Dan Ward, Green, Shelton Dickenson, Freeman, they’re all to a lesser or greater extent ok players. We need to move away from squad type players and sign people of Raglans calibre. And have a smaller squad- which was supposed to be the plan this season. .