yarddog73 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, JoeP said: Without wanting to pick holes, Unsworth didn't have us playing any better than we are now. He had an unbelievable run of luck by winning games where the opposition missed chances and we won games we really should have drawn and lost. Honestly I can't pick more than half a dozen games that Mellon had us playing well, I think it's fair to compare Unsworth back end of last season to this because we are in the same division, Unsworth certainly had a better home record after Christmas that's for sure and it could be argued we've been lucky under Mellon also, I can remember wins we've picked up where I thought we were fortunate. Now whether there are constants in both seasons is up for debate but I honestly feel it needs ripping up and starting again we are that far off, Chesterfield are likely to finish 40 points plus in front of us and that's criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarddog73 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, JoeP said: Without wanting to pick holes, Unsworth didn't have us playing any better than we are now. He had an unbelievable run of luck by winning games where the opposition missed chances and we won games we really should have drawn and lost. Double post Edited March 25 by yarddog73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemel latic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 15 hours ago, BradKnowles1 said: I was looking through some previous messages I had with a footballer who has played a considerable amount of games in the championship. We discussed Norwood in August he said he can’t score if nobody is feeding him. Think he’s bang on with that. That was my main reflection on Saturday's performance, we create so few chances so Norwood's almost our main creative talent in addition to our main goal scoring threat. We really miss Green within this particular group. I'm still hopeful that Conlon will improve with games under the belt, but that might be for next season. Saturday was a hard watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, yarddog73 said: This is just not true though, only the week before we lost a 2-0 lead, got a point but could of ended up with none yet the team were applauded off like heroes, not because they'd won a point but because they'd left it all out on the pitch, performance wise you'd say they all played their part. Fast forward to the following Saturday and you couldn't single one player out who did the same, not one. Now to me there is something fundamentally wrong with a group of players that weak. I really am getting fucked off with every man and his dog blaming the fans, it's weak and divisive for a start. What happened at home to Kidderminster then when I didn't hear a boo or grown all game despite feeling embarrassed for Mr Rothwell?. Yet we didn't even get going, have a go or show an ounce of Oldham pride?. This group of players and the manager now are becoming an embarrassment, they are weak and he is weaker for allowing it, he's reaffirmed this behaviour by unconditionally selecting players who continuously let him down, I don't give a fuck if he plays a kid on the wing who fights and gives his all instead of some player who swans about going through the motion. He keeps telling us he's got a group he trusts and one that represents the people of Oldham, well that's a load of shite as well. We've had players fall off the face of the earth still being paid wages - but apparantly we are all in this together. Back end of last season Unsworth somehow got a tune out of a far inferior squad and Mellon is doing the opposite when it counts, our home record under him is a huge worry going forward and he's been unable to find any answers so far despite being able to bring six players in to the fold, only two of them started Saturday and they were arguably our worst players in Walker and Conlon. Nothing that was wrong within the squad has been addressed and we are spluttering our way through to the end of the season with a lot of these weak players already signed up for next season. It's a mess that needs sorting out, recruitment has been abysmal and I put that at Darren Royles door, there doesn't seem to be any conceivable plan other than someone at the club being pally with a number of agents which is no way to do business, whose identifying what we need because we finished with four strikers on the pitch Saturday and a midfield that couldn't pass piss, not a wide player at the club, four strikers who I'd beat over 50 yards with little pace and our standard bunch of right footed centrehalfs. It's criminal really the mess that squads in. Anyway good luck with the season ticket sales which are likely to dictate the budget but I guess that will be the fans fault again. You've picked Chesterfield as the one example to refute what I was saying but that is the exception rather than the rule given how far clear they are at the top. One of the main problems I have with trying to have an online discussion about a complex matter is when things get reduced down to a simple point to try and argue against. I did not in any way say it was the "fans fault" nor was I "blaming the fans". The point I was making was that it will not help hurling abuse at players for having a bad game. I don't think anyone could argue that it would help. I mean I even specifically said that wasn't my point in a follow up post. I also said that I acknowledge that I understand frustrations and that I don't know what the answer is. If I thought the answer was fans needed to stop booing then that would suggest that I thought I did know what the answer is. I don't think the fans will stop no matter what I or anyone else think about those sort of things being a possible a contributing factor to our problems, it isn't going to change. So it's 100% on the club to try and sort that out. I think what happens is people see things in different ways. I think we're all fed up of our lot. Decades of relentless shite, yet still turning up in the hope that we're going to see something good at last. Then the Rothwells come in and we can finally see some light. But it isn't happening quickly and I think thats where fans diverge. Some are clearly furious that it's taking longer than they think it should. Others are a bit more relaxed about it. Each group probably winding the other up for thinking differently! My personal feeling is that we were about as low as a club gets without going bust less than 2 years ago. We have novice football club owners (yet very experienced and successful local business people who care), a relatively inexperienced CEO and we started off with a novice 1st team manager. All trying to build a club up from rock bottom. Things will go wrong and they did, starting with the Unsworth appointment. We've now got a proper, experienced winner in one of the key positions yet he's only actually been there a few months. This season, we're likely to either go up (least likely option) or we'll make the play offs or just miss out. That is progression. It may not feel like it or be as much progression as some would expect, but it's still progression. And it will be our best finishing position (relative to the leauge we're in) for nearly 20 years. This is all stuff to build from, not to be absolutely furious about. That's the bit I don't get - how many people just seem to be in a permanent state of fury about it all. I'm frustrated as anyone else when we have an inexplicable bad game, usually after a good one, but if you were to have said to me in the summer of 2022 that our first season would see us mid table, our second season would see us in or around the play offs and that we'd be going into the third season with a multiple promotion winning manager a few months into the job and some of the top players we have in the squad, then I'd have been thinking that would be a decent rate of progess. What that means on a match to match basis though is a level of inconsistency until we're a team that's pushing for the title. It means drawing or losing games we should be winning. It means players having off days. We've had too many of those recently, but it doesn't mean the whole club has gone to shit. Unfortunately, turning around a business is not as easy as just injecting some cash, or playing 442, or putting a youth player in the team. I don't expect us to be winning the league by March next season, but I expect us to be consistently top 3. That'd be more progress. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimeblue Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, yarddog73 said: Honestly I can't pick more than half a dozen games that Mellon had us playing well, I think it's fair to compare Unsworth back end of last season to this because we are in the same division, Unsworth certainly had a better home record after Christmas that's for sure and it could be argued we've been lucky under Mellon also, I can remember wins we've picked up where I thought we were fortunate. Now whether there are constants in both seasons is up for debate but I honestly feel it needs ripping up and starting again we are that far off, Chesterfield are likely to finish 40 points plus in front of us and that's criminal. When we've been decent under Mellon, we've been far better than we were under Unsworth. Less regularly than we should be but there are still signs. Unsworth was never going to get it right but I think Mellon will Big, big pre-season and first 12 games though. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, nzlatic said: Unfortunately, turning around a business is not as easy as just injecting some cash, or playing 442, or putting a youth player in the team. This line gets wheeled out a lot, but Frank changed a lot almost instantly. He cleared debt, bought the ground, there's nothing that remains of the Lemsagam era (apart from maybe not acknowledging disappearing players!), improved the match day experience with the fan bar and signed players that should be the best in the league considering the money they're on. It's football. It's a business, yes, but it's a simple one. The league table suggests there has been progress as you say and it's the wrong time for the fans to be angry as we can still go up and want everyone to be pulling together. However, I would argue there still isn't perhaps much evidence of hope on the pitch. I'm not sure anyone seriously believes we're going up this season. It would be miraculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankly Mr Shankly Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 12 minutes ago, JoeP said: I'm not sure anyone seriously believes we're going up this season. It would be miraculous. I personally don't think getting into the play-offs is too big an ask. There's a lot of assumption that Halifax, Alty and Gateshead are not going to be caught but they have a lot of matches to cram in. However the three matches beyond that feel a stretch too far for me, with two tough away assignments before you even get to Wembley. One from Bromley, Barnet, Aldershot or Solihull I'd reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 4 minutes ago, JoeP said: This line gets wheeled out a lot, but Frank changed a lot almost instantly. He cleared debt, bought the ground, there's nothing that remains of the Lemsagam era (apart from maybe not acknowledging disappearing players!), improved the match day experience with the fan bar and signed players that should be the best in the league considering the money they're on. It's football. It's a business, yes, but it's a simple one. The league table suggests there has been progress as you say and it's the wrong time for the fans to be angry as we can still go up and want everyone to be pulling together. However, I would argue there still isn't perhaps much evidence of hope on the pitch. I'm not sure anyone seriously believes we're going up this season. It would be miraculous. I don't disagree with you Joe on the evidence of hope on the pitch when it comes to performances. But as a season as a whole, purely on results, there has been evidence of hope. If I was defending the on pitch stuff I'd probably point to having 4 different match day managers this season (I'm stretching by including Murray in that I admit). And that Mellon is the only one who comes with any pedigree. 28 games is not long enough to declare whether someone has been or is going to be a success or not. When it comes to turning the club around, if we do happen to be a fixture in the top 3 over the course of next season, would that not be seen as good progress within the timeframe? Is it realistic or fair to expect that to have happened during the 2nd season and be so furious as some are that we aren't at that point now? I'd argue not. Yes Frank has made immediate changes, but you could say that about a lot of businesses. Buy a restaurant, bring in a michelin star chef and give them a shiny new kitchen but would or should that guarantee that the food is consistently great and you have a great and profitable restaurant within a few months? I don't think things are that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 3 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said: I personally don't think getting into the play-offs is too big an ask. There's a lot of assumption that Halifax, Alty and Gateshead are not going to be caught but they have a lot of matches to cram in. However the three matches beyond that feel a stretch too far for me, with two tough away assignments before you even get to Wembley. One from Bromley, Barnet, Aldershot or Solihull I'd reckon. Yeah, agreed. I’ve stayed off here all weekend because the dreaded apathy has set in a bit, as I don’t think we’ll make it now. We need a complete turnaround in form and it’s not happening. Marc White said at the start of the season we’d finish 8th, and I want his lottery numbers because I think he’ll be spot on. I’ve defended Mellon, and if- as expected we don’t make the playoffs, he still gets the summer to rebuild and the start of next season to see if he can push us on. But- there’s no denying, he has underachieved this season. We were mid-table when he came in, he had an underachieving squad and got some results, he has then been backed with 5/6 signings and the net result is- we are a few places higher. That’s a poor return. He’s wasn’t brought in for gradual improvement, he was brought in to win promotion. He said himself the target this season was playoffs- that doesn’t look like happening and he’s under big pressure next season. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 17 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I don't disagree with you Joe on the evidence of hope on the pitch when it comes to performances. But as a season as a whole, purely on results, there has been evidence of hope. If I was defending the on pitch stuff I'd probably point to having 4 different match day managers this season (I'm stretching by including Murray in that I admit). And that Mellon is the only one who comes with any pedigree. 28 games is not long enough to declare whether someone has been or is going to be a success or not. When it comes to turning the club around, if we do happen to be a fixture in the top 3 over the course of next season, would that not be seen as good progress within the timeframe? Is it realistic or fair to expect that to have happened during the 2nd season and be so furious as some are that we aren't at that point now? I'd argue not. Yes Frank has made immediate changes, but you could say that about a lot of businesses. Buy a restaurant, bring in a michelin star chef and give them a shiny new kitchen but would or should that guarantee that the food is consistently great and you have a great and profitable restaurant within a few months? I don't think things are that simple. Well, yes I think it would! To stretch the metaphor slightly, a Michelin star chef isn't going to start producing shit food if everything is in place - but our footballers seem to be doing that! I dunno, I don't get the anger when we're still in with a shout now and I don't blame Mellon at the moment and certainly don't blame Frank. There's just something not working when it should be. I'm not sure we've seen enough this season to be excited for next season. I can see a clear out and it taking another year to build for the following year.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 2 minutes ago, JoeP said: Well, yes I think it would! To stretch the metaphor slightly, a Michelin star chef isn't going to start producing shit food if everything is in place - but our footballers seem to be doing that! I dunno, I don't get the anger when we're still in with a shout now and I don't blame Mellon at the moment and certainly don't blame Frank. There's just something not working when it should be. I'm not sure we've seen enough this season to be excited for next season. I can see a clear out and it taking another year to build for the following year.. To persist with my already thin metaphor, would people buy it though? There is more too it than just creating good food as if it was that simple loads of people would have successful restaurants. I'm not comparing a restaurant with a football team though, so maybe metaphor is the wrong word. It's just an example of a business that should sound simple but definitely wouldn't be because there are all sorts of other things that go into creating a succesful restaurant. Same with football... new owner, spruce up facilities, hire manager with good record, sign good players - it sounds like a simple recipe (sorry) for promotion but if it was that simple then everyone would do it. I've just listened to the pod, so this comment probably more relevant in that thread, but as Matt said, we're moving forwards, not backwards. As we do that, the changes that will be needed for long term success will be less drastic over time. Starting this summer. I think we have the bones of a very good team, so I don't think we need a complete overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarddog73 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 26 minutes ago, nzlatic said: I don't disagree with you Joe on the evidence of hope on the pitch when it comes to performances. But as a season as a whole, purely on results, there has been evidence of hope. If I was defending the on pitch stuff I'd probably point to having 4 different match day managers this season (I'm stretching by including Murray in that I admit). And that Mellon is the only one who comes with any pedigree. 28 games is not long enough to declare whether someone has been or is going to be a success or not. When it comes to turning the club around, if we do happen to be a fixture in the top 3 over the course of next season, would that not be seen as good progress within the timeframe? Is it realistic or fair to expect that to have happened during the 2nd season and be so furious as some are that we aren't at that point now? I'd argue not. Yes Frank has made immediate changes, but you could say that about a lot of businesses. Buy a restaurant, bring in a michelin star chef and give them a shiny new kitchen but would or should that guarantee that the food is consistently great and you have a great and profitable restaurant within a few months? I don't think things are that simple. It's interesting you use that example. One I like to use is this, given the successful business Frank has built and as an example, he may well have the best sales person in the game but a real shortage of drivers to deliver his cabins, do you think as a business they'd bring someone else in on the sales team, he's a great lad and a top seller he just wants a move nearer to his roots in the North West, he's expensive as well and will eat in to that transport budget leaving little to fill the positions needed. It's never going to happen is it in any other walk of life, money just isn't going to be squandered like that yet we seem to be hemorrhaging it at an alarming rate of knots, now that doesn't affect me directly but it makes no sense at all on any level. Chesterfield as the example have a very balanced squad players like Colclough and Berry were brought in to compliment players they already had and they recruited in key areas - not because someone was too good to turn down, we've got to be smarter because as a business we are behaving dumb and that unfortunately is half the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Faz has summed things beautifully further up the thread. It really is difficult to see where things are going or what the plan is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
League one forever Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 5 minutes ago, nzlatic said: To persist with my already thin metaphor, would people buy it though? There is more too it than just creating good food as if it was that simple loads of people would have successful restaurants. I'm not comparing a restaurant with a football team though, so maybe metaphor is the wrong word. It's just an example of a business that should sound simple but definitely wouldn't be because there are all sorts of other things that go into creating a succesful restaurant. Same with football... new owner, spruce up facilities, hire manager with good record, sign good players - it sounds like a simple recipe (sorry) for promotion but if it was that simple then everyone would do it. I've just listened to the pod, so this comment probably more relevant in that thread, but as Matt said, we're moving forwards, not backwards. As we do that, the changes that will be needed for long term success will be less drastic over time. Starting this summer. I think we have the bones of a very good team, so I don't think we need a complete overhaul. I have such mixed feelings about us. On the one hand, I see the bigger picture and the health of the club is very positive. On the other hand, we should be doing better this season given the calibre of manager and the pedigree of players. I suppose I’m just struggling with a few places higher being seen as enough progress. Feels like clutching a little bit. Even Mickey said the target was playoffs. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 11 minutes ago, yarddog73 said: It's interesting you use that example. One I like to use is this, given the successful business Frank has built and as an example, he may well have the best sales person in the game but a real shortage of drivers to deliver his cabins, do you think as a business they'd bring someone else in on the sales team, he's a great lad and a top seller he just wants a move nearer to his roots in the North West, he's expensive as well and will eat in to that transport budget leaving little to fill the positions needed. It's never going to happen is it in any other walk of life, money just isn't going to be squandered like that yet we seem to be hemorrhaging it at an alarming rate of knots, now that doesn't affect me directly but it makes no sense at all on any level. Chesterfield as the example have a very balanced squad players like Colclough and Berry were brought in to compliment players they already had and they recruited in key areas - not because someone was too good to turn down, we've got to be smarter because as a business we are behaving dumb and that unfortunately is half the problem. With that example, the business might take the view that the sales person is available now and will be a massive benefit to the business over the next few years. So lets get him in now. There are some ok drivers who can get that job done in the mean time. But also, it may just have been that they thought it was the right decision at the time and had a plan for the other stuff, but it just didn't work out that way. I'm not going to sit here and argue we've got our recruitment right. All I'm saying is that progress has been made season on season so far and that Mellon should get a proper amount of time to improve again and see us jump up another few places next season. And if the EFL and National League can get their act together and make it 3 up/3 down like normal leagues then we'll all feel a bit better about our chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarddog73 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 What compounds it for me is the fact we were in there, when we hosted Kidderminster I was looking at us finishing 2nd or 3rd but we imploded that day, corrected it maybe fortuatsly at Eastleigh the week after but since then there has been nothing. I think losing Green against Southend was a blow as we've looked toothless out wide since and that was also the game Norwood was reintroduced, coincidentally we are seven without a win with Norwood in the team, he scored 12 in 15 when Mellon was appointed but he's only bagged once in the last seven which is a worry, we obviously aren't playing to his strengths and the mellonball we played whilst he was sidelined with Garner and Fondop up top just isn't his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 very disappointing weekend. more disappointed in the Boo Brigade than anything else, dunno what they think they are adding to things . acting like man babies is just making it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 6 minutes ago, yarddog73 said: What compounds it for me is the fact we were in there, when we hosted Kidderminster I was looking at us finishing 2nd or 3rd but we imploded that day, corrected it maybe fortuatsly at Eastleigh the week after but since then there has been nothing. I think losing Green against Southend was a blow as we've looked toothless out wide since and that was also the game Norwood was reintroduced, coincidentally we are seven without a win with Norwood in the team, he scored 12 in 15 when Mellon was appointed but he's only bagged once in the last seven which is a worry, we obviously aren't playing to his strengths and the mellonball we played whilst he was sidelined with Garner and Fondop up top just isn't his game. I know penalties still count and all that but he's barely scraped into double figures from open play, a poor return for the investment made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 3 minutes ago, Monty Burns said: very disappointing weekend. more disappointed in the Boo Brigade than anything else, dunno what they think they are adding to things . acting like man babies is just making it worse. Unfortunately you’ll always have that element within a football club. I have some sympathy for fans travelling the length & breadth of the country being let down time & time again by an absolute spineless set of players! We’ve all been there before, far too often over the last couple of seasons and know how frustrating it can be. Surely it would be better to leave a minute or two early or just not acknowledge the players at all when they come over which would send an equally strong message to the players without the unnecessary abuse!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 7 minutes ago, deyres42 said: I know penalties still count and all that but he's barely scraped into double figures from open play, a poor return for the investment made. Could it be because we barely provide the service in open play. He would score an absolute hatful in a decent side….we are far from a decent side!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Just now, oafc1955 said: Could it be because we barely provide the service in open play. He would score an absolute hatful in a decent side….we are far from a decent side!! I keep seeing that claim but I'm not convinced by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidge Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Winners need to react quicker, move quicker and maintain your effort longer then the opposition. If players want to play for their team mates, manager, club organisation, trophies and fans, then motivation to winning effort levels is easier for players to achieve. I’m hope most of us would agree the inconsistent team performances suggest this is a more important issue right now them the fact we haven’t signed a right back and have to many centre backs. So, taking all that onboard, it is ease to see that all these factors are important. Those of us who blame the booing fans for the players lack of effort are correct. Those of us who blame the manager are correct etc etc. So is it useful for us on the forum to argue which of the factors is the only one that matters? So my main point is that the one and only of those many factors that we as fans can influence directly is the matchday experience for players. Will those players be more likely to find the motivation to up effort levels if we boo them or cheer them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 2 hours ago, nzlatic said: I think we have the bones of a very good team Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzlatic Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 7 minutes ago, oafc1955 said: Really? Definitely. Hudson Raglan Hobson Kitching Conlon Norwood Garner I think you could start those 7 next season and add 4 better quality replacements and be realistically aiming for top 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyyou Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 7 minutes ago, oafc1955 said: Really? Yep. The bare bones. Need two FB/WBs, two CMs who are comfortable on the ball, two wingers and, if Dallas doesn't join, a forward like Josh Stones. And, if there is any rent left, a left-sided CB wouldn't go amiss. Not much to do in the summer then!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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