StipeTripe Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I felt rough yesterday, but as they say it was a "bought one", so me own fault. And thats the 150 up BT Mrs S has had that sore throat and stuff for about a week now, tickly cough, it seems to be doing the rounds. Remarkably, touch wood, it aint got me yet, nowt has and I am a cold magnet usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 BT - bet your lurgy doesn't keep you away from BP tonight! I bet it doesn't, whether or not it keeps me off work tomorrow depends upon what happens tonight tho, if I have to cheer all 17 of the latics goals I don't think my throat will take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I've said it before and I'll say it again, but the noose is both financially prudent and delivers excellent results in preventing re-offending. :thumbdown: Absolutely disagree with capital punishment personally. "An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StipeTripe Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I've said it before and I'll say it again, but the noose is both financially prudent and delivers excellent results in preventing re-offending. :thumbdown: Absolutely disagree with capital punishment personally. "An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind." The older I get, the more I'm not so sure, if you'd asked me 20 years ago I'd have been vehemently against capital punishment. But when you see some Fliper released early from prison who goes straight out and murders again, I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gillianfn Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 What have I said? I'm trying desperately not to say my piece, but it's looking like I may have to. I'm a lot like our Andrew, but I've swung (if you will pardon the pun) between for and against, for a long time. In my teens I was for it, in my 20's to early 30's very much against it, these days I'm not sure at all. But like Andrew, I read stuff that makes me cry, and I just think that there are people that without, the world would be a better place. Take for example, the bloke who raped the 12 week old baby? I'm here, with a pained expression on my face just trying not to imagine the physical, probably irrepairable damage that he did to that baby girl. Had that been done to one of my children, there would be no need for anyone to have administered the death penalty because I am absolutely positive that I or Mike, would have carried it out ourselves. Even now, I am fiercely protective of my own - so there are cases where I'd look and say, yes, hang them from the highest point. Then there is always the element of doubt, Stefan Kisco (sp?) Would I want an innocent person to hang? No, I wouldn't. Would I want a dirty filthy child molester, murderer, abuser of old people, to live? The answer is no again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Very tricky area, I am against it but it is very difficult to justify why. I think it is wrong for a state to kill a person for breaking the laws that the state has set, usually out of political expediency. I think it is hypocritical to kill a murderer as it is commiting the same act as the person is being punished for. When it comes to kiddy-fiddlers and rapists, the other great taboos of our society I am swayed by the argument that if you assign the death penalty to these offences then it makes the offender less likely to keep the victim alive. The logic being that if he is going to be strung up for the rape/fiddle then he may be more inclined to kill the victim to prevent them testifying against him. Although, in many case it might be easier for some victims not to have to live with the memories - then again the victims loved ones have to deal with the loss. As I said, it is a tricky one. On the other hand what is the point in keeping the offender alive and in prison until they die? Not much really, doesn't bring the victim back and doesn't stop others commiting similar offences. I reject the deterent argument for several reasons such as no criminal ever thinks they will get caught, hence they still commit crimes..etc.. Capital punishment usually ends up as retribution rather than justice and unfortunately in the thousands of years that man has been alive this is one question that hasn't been answered. What is the correct way to deal with people who go against a society's laws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I've said it before and I'll say it again, but the noose is both financially prudent and delivers excellent results in preventing re-offending. :thumbdown: Absolutely disagree with capital punishment personally. "An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind." The older I get, the more I'm not so sure, if you'd asked me 20 years ago I'd have been vehemently against capital punishment. But when you see some :censored:er released early from prison who goes straight out and murders again, I dunno. The solution being, don't release them, in my opinion. Like BT, I disagree with the state not abiding by it's own laws. And, harsh as it may sound, I don't like hearing victims' opinions - of course many will support the death penalty, but they can't be objective, can they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Has Porter or "Ports" as I believe it is now the law to call him, got toothache in your new picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Has Porter or "Ports" as I believe it is now the law to call him, got toothache in your new picture? Think he's pointing out a cold sore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footy68 Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Nah, a very poor impression of Austin Powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oa_exile Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Nah, a very poor impression of Austin Powers. Dr Evil himself :twisted: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gillianfn Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Whilst driving along today, got the most horrendous smell from outside on the inside of my car, made me heave. I think I was near a wagon with dead animals in it. I can't be sure but I don't think that on the BT (rip) we ever did the worst job imaginable. For me it would be anything that involved dirt and revolting smells, like toilet cleaning, or messing with dead bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footy68 Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I worked in Strivens abattoir.........for 1 day. Slave labour, made me sick and just hated it. I was 17 at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Few quickies on the hot potato - re: the state's laws, it isn't against the law to kill someone, only to murder them. It's illegal to lock someone up and not let them out, or to take their money from them, but we have prisons and fines. Absolutely agree that victim's families should have no input in sentencing - makes it less of a crime to kill a miserable old git who smelt and was hated by everyone than someone whose mother loved them - not right. Wherever possible, I believe the law should be focused on compensating the victim rather than punishing them as such. Obviously with mass child abusers and the like this isn't possible, but I would have no issue with putting repeat muggers on a chain gang until they earn enough to send the vivtim on a nice holiday. And the coppers who knowingly let Stefan Kisco go down knowing he was innocent, basically ruining his life, and thereby called of the hunt for the real killer, well, the noose is too good for them. Odd for a tree hugger eh? I used to be very much anti the death pen, my views began to change when I did some book-learning that made me think about what you should or shouldn't do in a variety of life or death violent situations and proceeded from there. Read my dissertation Stipey, I will be asking questions later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusoe Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I think it is wrong for a state to kill a person for breaking the laws that the state has set... I think it is hypocritical to kill a murderer as it is commiting the same act as the person is being punished for. When it comes to kiddy-fiddlers and rapists, the other great taboos of our society I am swayed by the argument that if you assign the death penalty to these offences then it makes the offender less likely to keep the victim alive... I reject the deterent argument for several reasons such as no criminal ever thinks they will get caught, hence they still commit crimes..etc.. Capital punishment usually ends up as retribution rather than justice... And: The solution being, don't release them, in my opinion. Like BT, I disagree with the state not abiding by it's own laws. And, harsh as it may sound, I don't like hearing victims' opinions - of course many will support the death penalty, but they can't be objective, can they? And: Absolutely agree that victim's families should have no input in sentencing - makes it less of a crime to kill a miserable old git who smelt and was hated by everyone than someone whose mother loved them - not right. I'm not used to seeing this much sense posted on a football forum! Excellent stuff beag_teeets, Stevie_J and leeslover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Bloody hell. I came in here expecting a random insults post - like you get on almost every single version of a 'last post' thread. Not an in depth critique of the capital punishment system in the mist of a guerilla war! I'll be back more often now, great distraction from Uni... if anyone wants to have a bash at the internationalisation of the motor industry for me I don't mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 The tone might lower Ackey, don't get your hopes up. What's your field of study? If it's quarter relevant to what I used to do I would be pleased to do a bit of proof reading to stir the grey cells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StipeTripe Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Read my dissertation Stipey, I will be asking questions later. Ok ok, its still in its semi virgin state on me hard drive, I will get around to it. Shame on me you sent it in July :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: . In my defense I have started it on a couple of occasions, but never got further than the first page, simply because the mere opening of the file has lead to pesky customers ringing up and placing orders and the like in an otherwise quiet and barren spell of business, which is why I opened it up ( the quiet spell, not to encourage daft things like orders, although its a bit slow now...........) anyway I'm doing the sensible thing, and copying it to flash drive to transport home. Now all I have to do is remember its there and shift it on the pooter at home. As for Ackey "Bloody hell. I came in here expecting a random insults post - like you get on almost every single version of a 'last post' thread" Well there's a thread on JKL that stands at 5783 posts, ok not always "serious" debate, but unlike many of these type of threads it doesn't comprise of the "I'm winning" or single word posts that you are right to say many do. Oh and please don't take Gillian threatening to get her norks out in Kendals window as representative. EDIT: Oh and Stevie J, yer just showing off now with them pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Few quickies on the hot potato - re: the state's laws, it isn't against the law to kill someone, only to murder them. It's illegal to lock someone up and not let them out, or to take their money from them, but we have prisons and fines. Just to clarify, where I used kill I was using it as generic term to cover murder, manslaughter, unlawful killing, bombing, throwing in a vat of acid then laughing like a maniac in a rather sharp suit and making some quip about how everyone will now fear the badger or whatever supervillain name you have chosen. Secondly, the old kidnap/prison analogy does kinda defeat the state shouldn't murder murderers/ imprison kidnappers argument, however incarceration is quite widely accepted as a means of removing someone who has been found guilty from wider society. As I said, tricky area that we haven't found a solution to in thousands of years. We probably won't find a "solution" and will have to make do with a "best fit" compromise. Anyways, lurgy still bad, my ankles and knees hurt today too, dragged myself in as I have a meeting but think I will go straight home to bed after that. Chris Taylor was quality, I know we don't do footie on here but thank jehovah that he is latics through and through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gillianfn Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Wow, Tony, you dragged yourself in today! I AM impressed! I didn't go last night - pah, call myself a Latics fan - I'm nothing short of a disgrace. I did have a valid enough reason though. I've got an impingment in one of my ankles and I had to go to hospital yesterday to have injections in it. Even though my foot was completely numb, I decided it would be ok to drive home. Whether the pain would have been less had I not driven on it, I don't know, but by 7pm I was crying!!! Yes I know I'm a soft girl, but there is no way I could have gone out. Further on the death penalty, I think someone has mentioned that the families of the victims should not really be considered in this debate or involved in the sentencing, because they can never be emotionally removed. In my view, these are exactly the people that should be considered. As a mum, daughter, wife etc, I cannot imagine how I would ever pick up the pieces if one of the people who mean the world to me were to be taken from me in an act of sheer violence. I know that the death of the perpetrator would not bring them back, but I really don't think that for me, any other punishment would fit. But then I have to consider the families of the criminals - they go through hell and torment in the time leading up to and during the execution just as someone losing a loved one to a murder, they are likely to be traumatised for years afterwards. It must he hard enough for people to come to terms with the fact that their loved one could be guilty of a serious crime without them being sentenced to death. Having said that, from my personal stance, I still don't think I could ever let it go, I couldn't imagine the murderer of my child living and breathing and continuing their life, albeit inside, knowing that in an instant, the life of my child had been brought abruptly to an end by their actions. I don't think I have it in me to do the forgiveness, like the mother of the lad killed in Manchester (Jesse James was it?) I couldn't forgive and as for the funding of a lifer, well how much? Large amounts - for me they could electrocute the criminal and put the funds that would have been used to keep him/her incarcerated to better use. So, what of rehabilitation: as you know I work for a law firm and we have acted for some right little Bleeders over the years. They get locked up, they get let out, they reoffend, they get locked up, they get let out, they reoffend - more often than not, each crime getting worse until in the end they are banged up for a long long time for something far worse than they'd ever done in the first place. If rehabilitation were to work, I may be inclined to support the prison system, but as it stands, I don't think that works either. I guess in the absence of the death penalty, I would have to make do with the "locking up and key throwing" scenario, but even that for me is flawed as we all know. Aaaaand relax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Of course, if it were your child, you would want the perpetrator dead, Gillian. Almost anybody would. But that's my point. There has to be objectivity about the decision of how to deal with them, surely. For me, capital punishment sends entirely the wrong message to society. Although I agree that families of victims will very rarely be able to forgive (I know I wouldn't), I do know that I'd prefer to live in a society that doesn't promote violent revenge. And whilst I can appreciate that incarcerating someone for many years is economically expensive, capital punishment isn't something to be decided on the basis of cost, is it? Pass me LL's lefty tree hugger hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Oh and Stevie J, yer just showing off now with them pics I don't mean to, honest guv'. I just quite enjoy messing around, trying to come up with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gillianfn Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 And whilst I can appreciate that incarcerating someone for many years is economically expensive, capital punishment isn't something to be decided on the basis of cost, is it? Pass me LL's lefty tree hugger hat. Mmmm, I hear what you say, but I'm just thinking that without any form of proper rehabilitation (which if you advocate the prison system, then you must believe in) is there any point in keeping these hopeless people alive? The expense of keeping them could be put to much better use. And what about the safety of others? By getting rid of them full stop, they are never going to reoffend are they? Like some of the people we act for, each crime getting worse. Once they start, there are a lot of them that never get better, just progress into bigger, more serious crime. One of our clients started off at 12 doing a bit of TWOCing. He is now inside for a long time having shot someone in a wheelchair. Waste of space? You bet. And back to costs, why should taxes be spent on keeping these little Bleeders alive? There are other ways that I can think of to spend good money, education and health for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 We in the west judge China as being poor on human rights as they do stuff like that and as Steve says just because something is cheap doesn't mean it is the best way to deal with it. Keeping people in prison for the rest of their lives doesn't achieve anything but for me it is preferable to killing them. No right answers on this, some of the greatest minds have struggled to find an answer and brilliant as we are I doubt we will get the solution on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusoe Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Couple of quick thoughts on that: How do you fairly and accurately decide which ones can't be rehabilitated at some point in their lives? How do you make sure that they are truly guilty? The idea of "safety of others" is counterbalanced by the worry that someone will accidentally or deliberately be wrongfully executed. I mean, it's not like we have a great record of that in this country! I do understand the frustration with the current system, and it is in bad shape, but I'd be the first out of the country if we moved to a system where we make a quick decision on whether someone is worth rehabilitating or just killing, and hope that that we're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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