Latics and England Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Whilst uncomfortable about the role of the DUP in this government going forward I really do not see an alternative. The simple fact is that there is no other party with enough MPs who would be willing to offer support to the Tories and for Labour to gain enough support to govern, they too would need the DUP on side. It is a ridiculous situation whereby the DUP would under normal circumstances vote the same way as the Tories on most occasions but if May (or successor) refused to come to an agreement with them upfront now they would almost certainly vote against just to spite them. You couldn't have a situation whereby the government could never win a vote so either way, the DUP become the kingmakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Latics and England said: Whilst uncomfortable about the role of the DUP in this government going forward I really do not see an alternative. The simple fact is that there is no other party with enough MPs who would be willing to offer support to the Tories and for Labour to gain enough support to govern, they too would need the DUP on side. It is a ridiculous situation whereby the DUP would under normal circumstances vote the same way as the Tories on most occasions but if May (or successor) refused to come to an agreement with them upfront now they would almost certainly vote against just to spite them. You couldn't have a situation whereby the government could never win a vote so either way, the DUP become the kingmakers. It's all about the conecessions that are given to DUP. One would imagine lots of investment, and enough money to pay off the debt from the Renewal Heat Incentive debacle, roughly 1/2 billion. The key is the social aspect. Rumour is that they are asking to be permitted to march at Dumcree again. If that concession is given then things could get very nasty indeed,although May would be mad to concede that if she wants to hold on. Edited June 12, 2017 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 20 minutes ago, singe said: It's all about the conecessions that are given to DUP. One would imagine lots of investment, and enough money to pay off the debt from the Renewal Heat Incentive debacle, roughly 1/2 billion. The key is the social aspect. Rumour is that they are asking to be permitted to march at Dumcree again. If that concession is given then things could get very nasty indeed,although May would be mad to concede that if she wants to hold on. If this was the Labour Party trying to get propped up by Sinn Fein there would have been a military coup by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said: If this was the Labour Party trying to get propped up by Sinn Fein there would have been a military coup by now. Quite. Can you imagine the Tory press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said: If this was the Labour Party trying to get propped up by Sinn Fein there would have been a military coup by now. It isn't. The political landscape of this country also means it is never likely to be. Ironcially its also the same reason that labour will struggle to get an outright majority of its own in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtobeWozzer Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 It's an unholy mess this. Queens speech delayed, according to Sky's political editor because they don't know what to write in it ?, pressure being exerted from within to move towards a softer Brexit from the Scottish Tories and others. The problem for May of course is that raises the prospect of Farage charging in from off stage (right) to mobilise UKIP again. Probably be a bit less stressful for her if she just resigned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtobeWozzer Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Just to help May out a bit, Royal Ascot starts the day after the now postponed Queens speech so they better put it back at least a week. Her Maj won't be happy about reading out the latest policies on the advancement of creationism when she could be watching the Gold Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 23 minutes ago, blueatheart said: It isn't. The political landscape of this country also means it is never likely to be. Ironcially its also the same reason that labour will struggle to get an outright majority of its own in the near future. You havent been paying attention have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, ChaddySmoker said: You havent been paying attention have you? <snip> I'm clearly missing the part of my post which says nothing has changed. Edited June 12, 2017 by blueatheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 22 minutes ago, UsedtobeWozzer said: It's an unholy mess this. Queens speech delayed, according to Sky's political editor because they don't know what to write in it ?, I repeat myself. If this was Labour we would be getting crucified for this manoeuvering. Democracy my arse! The sheer bloody arrogance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 It's a weird situation. I would imagine there is a section of the Tory vote (how big, I have no idea) who are very put out at the idea of the party they voted for cosying up to the DUP - I suppose that's always likely to be the case, regardless of the party but, as has been well highlighted, the DUP have some pretty bloody extreme views. However, I think the main concern should be whether this puts at risk 'peace' in Northern Ireland. I would hate to think the UK could set itself back decades on that front, just so Theresa May can desperately cling to power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcmetty Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 What you have to ask is what would happen if the next election was on Thursday. Would you see a rush of people switching their vote (back?) to the Conservatives to ward off Labour? Or would you see a load more votes for Labour as people sense a chance to get rid of the current government? I'm pretty sure I know which is more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View Of Golden Gate Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, Stevie_J said: It's a weird situation. I would imagine there is a section of the Tory vote (how big, I have no idea) who are very put out at the idea of the party they voted for cosying up to the DUP - I suppose that's always likely to be the case, regardless of the party but, as has been well highlighted, the DUP have some pretty bloody extreme views. However, I think the main concern should be whether this puts at risk 'peace' in Northern Ireland. I would hate to think the UK could set itself back decades on that front, just so Theresa May can desperately cling to power. This for me is being missed the most, their views on. well almost everything, is totally abhorrent. They will not influence the laws, though, as there is no way going backwards in gay and/or women rights would get through the House. This move does, however, break the Good Friday Agreement, how can anyone think this is ok? She did not need the DUP, the Irish parties usually sit out of Westminster proceedings, so their seats are null and void. This was done to stop calls for her resignation, but I'm sorry May is proving she is an even worse PM then I thought possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 40 minutes ago, ChaddySmoker said: I repeat myself. If this was Labour we would be getting crucified for this manoeuvering. Democracy my arse! The sheer bloody arrogance! You do know that Labour approached DUP in 2010 and 2015, right? And that Callaghan bribed them with extra seats during Paisley's Save Ulster from Sodomy campaign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 26 minutes ago, Stevie_J said: It's a weird situation. I would imagine there is a section of the Tory vote (how big, I have no idea) who are very put out at the idea of the party they voted for cosying up to the DUP - I suppose that's always likely to be the case, regardless of the party but, as has been well highlighted, the DUP have some pretty bloody extreme views. However, I think the main concern should be whether this puts at risk 'peace' in Northern Ireland. I would hate to think the UK could set itself back decades on that front, just so Theresa May can desperately cling to power. I itnhk there will be quite a few leaks of the 1922 Committeee meeting today to political commentators, so we should get an idea. Lots of talk of Cons being "calmed down" to avoid a split. They'll have to promised stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, disjointed said: Without the voters it all becomes a little too predictable. I think we should be talking more about the role of the voters in making this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norn Iron a failed state. The voters have decided they want their cars to rust in their negative-equity driveways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 1 hour ago, leeslover said: You do know that Labour approached DUP in 2010 and 2015, right? Its been an open secret that the DUP are available to the highest bidder. They always put out the noises. Its probably worth a phone call-nothing else. To tell us all to hold on a few days whilst the details of the bribe are hammered out is nothing short of arrogance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Queens Speech will bear little resemblance to their manifesto, that surely can't hold for long, can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, leeslover said: You do know that Labour approached DUP in 2010 and 2015, right? And that Callaghan bribed them with extra seats during Paisley's Save Ulster from Sodomy campaign? Going back a bit there aren't you? I'm also not sure about 2015. Besides, it's incumbent on anyone who might even just possibly control the largest grouping to reach out. Obviously talks between McDonnell and the DUP might be strained, but if there were a chance, I'd expect talks. Talks about a deal and actually making a deal are two different things. It's a tough world in which the one who makes the deal gets panned, which is what's coming May's way if she gets through this week. You just have to suck that up. Whataboutery is just piss weak at this point in events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 8 hours ago, leeslover said: You do know that Labour approached DUP in 2010 and 2015, right? And that Callaghan bribed them with extra seats during Paisley's Save Ulster from Sodomy campaign? Why would they have approached them in 2015, when the Tories won a majority? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgaston Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 8 hours ago, View Of Golden Gate said: This for me is being missed the most, their views on. well almost everything, is totally abhorrent. They will not influence the laws, though, as there is no way going backwards in gay and/or women rights would get through the House. This move does, however, break the Good Friday Agreement, how can anyone think this is ok? She did not need the DUP, the Irish parties usually sit out of Westminster proceedings, so their seats are null and void. This was done to stop calls for her resignation, but I'm sorry May is proving she is an even worse PM then I thought possible. The only party which does not attend, debate and vote in Westminster are the Shinners because they refuse to swear an oath of allegiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 39 minutes ago, Stevie_J said: Why would they have approached them in 2015, when the Tories won a majority? Only speculating but we saw how the Tories struggled with the size of that majority. The DUP consistently voting for or against the government would have been very significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgaston Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 11 hours ago, singe said: It's all about the conecessions that are given to DUP. One would imagine lots of investment, and enough money to pay off the debt from the Renewal Heat Incentive debacle, roughly 1/2 billion. The key is the social aspect. Rumour is that they are asking to be permitted to march at Dumcree again. If that concession is given then things could get very nasty indeed,although May would be mad to concede that if she wants to hold on. It's the Orange Institution asking for that Singe, it wouldn't be high on a list of priorities by DUP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 7 hours ago, leeslover said: Only speculating So you don't know that it happened? Only your post started "You do know......?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 39 minutes ago, rosa said: So you don't know that it happened? Only your post started "You do know......?". I can see where this is heading... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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