Harry Vaughan debate...

[Monty Burns]

45 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said:

Hes forced himself into the side towards the end of the season would have been interesting to see if given a few more months that he would have done the same here.

 

From a purely football point of view it looks like a bad mistake to let him go, but their could have been other factors. Clubs have been sniffing round him for sometime and if he's got an agent it could be that he could have turned his head. Admittedly I'm speculating but their must be some logic behind letting go a clearly talented player amd slso why multiple managers didn't pick him more regularly.

 

I don't agree with this notion that you can't succeed at this level but can at a higher one. He won't get anymore time on the ball in the championship than he will in the National League. Teams are encouraged more and more to press from the front at the highest level and that has filtered down the leagues.

 

Either way the move to Hull has worked out for him probably better so far than I and a few others expected.

l think it was a combination of Unsworth feeling he was being told what to do by the fans (if only he read the negativity on here, maybe we would still have him) and a willingness to have the club self sustainable from the outset.

its propaganda that selling him was a good thing, but lm willing to swallow it bc we owe The Rothwells our very existence.

 

PS every time l notice a player saying he gets 'more time on the ball' the higher up he plays l'll post it on here for ya  usually hear it about once every 18 months..

[League one forever]

On 6/3/2023 at 9:58 AM, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

 

You get far more time on the ball in the Championship (and Premiership) because creative players are light years ahead in skill levels and they move the ball around much more precisely to feet. So if you're a lumbering midfield player (an effective one, like Wokings, Borehamwood's etc) you'll get skinned in half a second with two passes as soon as you attempt the high press. Therefore they stand off when you have the ball and only use the press when judged right.

 

It's basically why Harry Vaughan was used sparingly by four managers at the club. He's a fantastic talent and we may have used him more if we were a L1 club.

That doesn’t make sense. 
 

You get far less time on the ball in the championship, because the players are fitter quicker and can sustain the press. So you have to be able to think quickly and move the ball quickly. So
If he’s playing against slow lumbering players - he should (and did) have the vision to pass through them or go past them.
 

No one will ever convince me that with the right support and protection he wasn’t good enough to win games for us, add to his value- and get sold for big money. Which is the whole purpose of the youth set up. 
 

It’s staggering to me that a team three divisions higher have signed a player that can’t catch in a conference side. . .  . . It’s comical. 
 

The managers didn’t play him, because he was high risk/reward - he might thread the killer pass to win the game or the lose the ball, and we’d be under the cosh. It should also he noted, that Kewell an attacking manager played him the most. . And the three subsequent managers Curle/Shez/Unsworth who are must not lose managers, didn’t play him. . . 

[GKing521]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

That doesn’t make sense. 
 

You get far less time on the ball in the championship, because the players are fitter quicker and can sustain the press. So you have to be able to think quickly and move the ball quickly. So
If he’s playing against slow lumbering players - he should (and did) have the vision to pass through them or go past them.
 

No one will ever convince me that with the right support and protection he wasn’t good enough to win games for us, add to his value- and get sold for big money. Which is the whole purpose of the youth set up. 
 

It’s staggering to me that a team three divisions higher have signed a player that can’t catch in a conference side. . .  . . It’s comical. 
 

The managers didn’t play him, because he was high risk/reward - he might thread the killer pass to win the game or the lose the ball, and we’d be under the cosh. It should also he noted, that Kewell an attacking manager played him the most. . And the three subsequent managers Curle/Shez/Unsworth who are must not lose managers, didn’t play him. . . 

While I agree with you, he's gone now. 

Hopefully down the line we get a nice chunk of change if they sell him for a decent fee...

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:04 PM, League one forever said:

That doesn’t make sense. 
 

You get far less time on the ball in the championship, because the players are fitter quicker and can sustain the press.

 

Incorrect, and I'll tell you why. 

 

The higher up you go, ball retention increases as players skill levels do. In the Premiership, yes the players are fitter - you're right on that count - however, they will not waste energy chasing down what's perceived as a lost cause. If you have a Premiership player on the ball, and an opposing player 10 yards away. If he chooses to charge directly towards the ball (a high press, for example), an elite footballer can easily in an instant turn that to his advantage with an incisive pass into a dangerous area. This happens far less often in non-league, where the high press tends to result in a loss of possession more frequently. Hence, why most of the teams in the top ten employ this tactic to good effect.

 

So to relate it to Harry Vaughan, whilst he is good on the ball, he's a far more effective player at Championship level than at National League level as a player at that level tends to have on average 3-4 seconds longer on the ball. Yes, he could play the incisive pass when pressed in our division, but his peers are not on his level and will more than likely mis-control the pass that's pumped at them, ending up in a loss of possession.

 

This article is a really good way of demonstrating it in more detail: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/04/how-does-the-style-of-football-change-as-you-journey-down-the-english-football-league/

Edited June 5, 2023 by Frankly Mr Shankly
Atrocious spelling!

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:40 AM, GlossopLatic said:

He won't get anymore time on the ball in the championship than he will in the National League.

 

Wrong: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/04/how-does-the-style-of-football-change-as-you-journey-down-the-english-football-league/

[League one forever]

13 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

 

Incorrect, and I'll tell you why. 

 

The higher up you go, ball retention increases as players skill levels do. In the Premiership, yes the players are fitter - you're right on that count - however, they will not waste energy chasing down what's perceived as a lost cause. If you have a Premiership player on the ball, and an opposing player 10 yards away. If he chooses to charge directly towards the ball (a high press, for example), an elite footballer can easily in an instant turn that to his advantage with an incisive pass into a dangerous area. This happens far less often in non-league, where the high press tends to result in a loss of possession more frequently. Hence, why most of the teams in the top ten employ this tactic to good effect.

 

So to relate it to Harry Vaughan, whilst he is good on the ball, he's a far more effective player at Championship level than at National League level as a player at that level tends to have on average 3-4 seconds longer on the ball. Yes, he could play the incisive pass when pressed in our division, but his peers are not on his level and will more than likely mis-control the pass that's pumped at them, ending up in a loss of possession.

 

This article is a really good way of demonstrating it in more detail: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/04/how-does-the-style-of-football-change-as-you-journey-down-the-english-football-league/

Sorry I don’t agree. 
 

The very best coaches in this country.  (Pep and Klopp) Insist on regaining possession as quickly as possible (they set the target of 6 seconds) There is no way that they do that by conceding possession for lost causes. Every single city player presses as soon as lose the ball, and 9 times out of time 10 they get it back very quickly. I am yet to see elite footballers play an incisive pass to beat their press because it’s extremely difficult to do under pressure. If it was fairly easy- city wouldn’t dominate. What I do see all the time, is city players winning the ball the opposition as high up the pitch as possible with great success. Liverpool did it last season. Brighton have done it well this season. 
 

Now, in the championship they’re obviously not as good. But the better teams all follow the pep mould - press as high as possible and get the back ball as quickly as possible. And again what happens under pressure? Players make mistakes, they don’t just beat the press by playing incisive passes. Otherwise no one would do it. 
 

In our league teams press for 5 minute spells because they’re knackered, and they often don’t do it as a team and it’s only in ones and two’s. So it’s obvious that you won’t be challenged or put under anywhere near the same pressure as the Championship. Harry showed when he played that he was often the only player who looked like he had time on the ball. How was he doing that if he had less time on the ball? 
 

I do agree though that Vaughan will improve quicker with better players around him. 

 

[Bobledgersheart]

One thing springs to mind after reading these post was that Harry got dropped for not tackling back to regain possession he'd lost.  

 

 

[Monty Burns]

if you don't get it now, you never will. it just means L14E and Glossopp used to be defenders or a keeper thats all. don't be ashamed of it or owt

[Monty Burns]

or head down wingers l suppose

[b0ndl1ne]

Good debate to read between the two of you 

[longtimeblue]

2 hours ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

 

Incorrect, and I'll tell you why. 

 

The higher up you go, ball retention increases as players skill levels do. In the Premiership, yes the players are fitter - you're right on that count - however, they will not waste energy chasing down what's perceived as a lost cause. If you have a Premiership player on the ball, and an opposing player 10 yards away. If he chooses to charge directly towards the ball (a high press, for example), an elite footballer can easily in an instant turn that to his advantage with an incisive pass into a dangerous area. This happens far less often in non-league, where the high press tends to result in a loss of possession more frequently. Hence, why most of the teams in the top ten employ this tactic to good effect.

 

So to relate it to Harry Vaughan, whilst he is good on the ball, he's a far more effective player at Championship level than at National League level as a player at that level tends to have on average 3-4 seconds longer on the ball. Yes, he could play the incisive pass when pressed in our division, but his peers are not on his level and will more than likely mis-control the pass that's pumped at them, ending up in a loss of possession.

 

This article is a really good way of demonstrating it in more detail: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/04/how-does-the-style-of-football-change-as-you-journey-down-the-english-football-league/

 

Interesting. We'll never know if he'd have been as/more effective at this level though... He never got a fair chance.

[TheBigDog]

1 hour ago, longtimeblue said:

 

Interesting. We'll never know if he'd have been as/more effective at this level though... He never got a fair chance.

This for me too

[oafc1955]

There’s a load of bollocks being spoken here….a good footballer is a good footballer…end of!!

[mcfluff1985]

51 minutes ago, oafc1955 said:

There’s a load of bollocks being spoken here….a good footballer is a good footballer…end of!!

Depends on the circumstances

[GlossopLatic]

11 hours ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

 

Wrong: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/04/how-does-the-style-of-football-change-as-you-journey-down-the-english-football-league/

 

Quite an interesting article but actually I'm not sure it means I'm wrong as the below paragraph backs up what I'm saying. 

 

The influence of foreign coaches on the English game is well-documented, with the likes of Pep Guardiola, Jürgen Klopp, Marcelo Bielsa and Mauricio Pochettino among plenty of others placing a heavy emphasis high-pressing styles when out of possession.  

And successfully winning the ball back close to the opposition goal does occur more frequently in the top tier, with that number reducing steadily as we drop down the leagues.

 

[Monty Burns]

2 hours ago, GlossopLatic said:

 

Quite an interesting article but actually I'm not sure it means I'm wrong as the below paragraph backs up what I'm saying. 

 

The influence of foreign coaches on the English game is well-documented, with the likes of Pep Guardiola, Jürgen Klopp, Marcelo Bielsa and Mauricio Pochettino among plenty of others placing a heavy emphasis high-pressing styles when out of possession.  

And successfully winning the ball back close to the opposition goal does occur more frequently in the top tier, with that number reducing steadily as we drop down the leagues.

 

you can still get more time on the ball against a high pressing team, nobody is quicker than the ball. if you high press and don't succeed you end up knackered and get smashed 5-0.

[Monty Burns]

9 hours ago, oafc1955 said:

There’s a load of bollocks being spoken here….a good footballer is a good footballer…end of!!

1954 phoned. wants its mindset back

[Monty Burns]

11 hours ago, b0ndl1ne said:

Good debate to read between the two of you 

lno. think l'm gona swear, call them some names and storm off home if they carries on!!!

[Monty Burns]

peppered with mentions of 'working hard off the ball' and 'tracking back' and even 'tackling'. just making myself sad really arent l

 

https://punditarena.com/football/ronan-calvert/hull-player-of-the-month-harry-vaughan-emerges-as-ireland-prospect/?amp

[Monty Burns]

ps lm not going to claim that 'its better because the ball comes to my feet and not my head' is a checkmate for the more time on the ball lads, because it isnt. l'll just confidently smile at it and see whether it brushes past me on its way to the powder room...

[yarddog73]

1 hour ago, Monty Burns said:

peppered with mentions of 'working hard off the ball' and 'tracking back' and even 'tackling'. just making myself sad really arent l

 

https://punditarena.com/football/ronan-calvert/hull-player-of-the-month-harry-vaughan-emerges-as-ireland-prospect/?amp

I watched him for Radcliffe a couple of times last season, he was dumped in a puddle early on in a game and looked like a drowned rat, how his season changed.

 

It's well documented on here my admiration for him and his ability and fair play to him for reacting in the right way after the Altrincham shithousery that went on, that could of broke many a player but he got his head down and got the bit of luck any player needs - a manager that believes in him, I'll keep an eye out for him and wish him all the best for club and country and will always wonder what could of been. I thought it ironic when Unsworth claimed one of Lundstrums strengths was receiving the ball on the half turn, in Vaughan he had the perfect player for that but strangely couldn't see past his weaknesses favouring Couto instead who offers nothing.

[Monty Burns]

5 minutes ago, yarddog73 said:

I watched him for Radcliffe a couple of times last season, he was dumped in a puddle early on in a game and looked like a drowned rat, how his season changed.

 

It's well documented on here my admiration for him and his ability and fair play to him for reacting in the right way after the Altrincham shithousery that went on, that could of broke many a player but he got his head down and got the bit of luck any player needs - a manager that believes in him, I'll keep an eye out for him and wish him all the best for club and country and will always wonder what could of been. I thought it ironic when Unsworth claimed one of Lundstrums strengths was receiving the ball on the half turn, in Vaughan he had the perfect player for that but strangely couldn't see past his weaknesses favouring Couto instead who offers nothing.

l honest think as a club we have suffered from a bit of stubbornness in this regard. but lm prepared to swallow it for the bigger picture and suck up a bit more pain in defence of that bigger picture bc l can see it. even if we are 15th in september lm holding onto that vision and backing it vocally.

lm ignoring the Couto bit bc l see something there aswell, which lve put across before so l wont harp.

the on the half turn comment set off my irony klaxxon too. l think we get money when he makes his Éire debut and l almost expect that by this time next year.

[mcfluff1985]

9 hours ago, yarddog73 said:

I watched him for Radcliffe a couple of times last season, he was dumped in a puddle early on in a game and looked like a drowned rat, how his season changed.

 

It's well documented on here my admiration for him and his ability and fair play to him for reacting in the right way after the Altrincham shithousery that went on, that could of broke many a player but he got his head down and got the bit of luck any player needs - a manager that believes in him, I'll keep an eye out for him and wish him all the best for club and country and will always wonder what could of been. I thought it ironic when Unsworth claimed one of Lundstrums strengths was receiving the ball on the half turn, in Vaughan he had the perfect player for that but strangely couldn't see past his weaknesses favouring Couto instead who offers nothing.

Let it go about Unsworth and Couto will you. 

 

The Altrincham shithousery where you keep making out like DU had Vaughan flogged is where DU just said HV should have tracked back. That's literally all it was. Keep blowing it way out of proportion though and having digs at Couto, it's not weird at all

[yarddog73]

7 hours ago, mcfluff1985 said:

Let it go about Unsworth and Couto will you. 

 

The Altrincham shithousery where you keep making out like DU had Vaughan flogged is where DU just said HV should have tracked back. That's literally all it was. Keep blowing it way out of proportion though and having digs at Couto, it's not weird at all

Let what go?, it's an opinion on a forum precious.

 

As for shithousery you do know Vaughan didn't play another minute for us again after that Altrincham game, he was 18 at the time and was made the scapegoat for that performance which was as bad as I've ever seen from a Latics team, it's not blown out of proportion it's fact and everything since then points to Unsworth getting the Vaughan situation very wrong, as for Couto I probably should cut him some slack but I don't rate him, he has age on his side and may well prove me wrong but I just don't see what he offers and he'd struggle to catch at Avro, it's not weird it's fact and the only thing weird in all this is how Unsworth somehow played;

 

Couto

Peck

Chapman

Wellens

Stobbs

Threlkeld 

Maynard

Burgess

Have I forgotten any????

 

In a midfield in front of him when we couldn't string two passes together let alone show any attacking intent.

 

I've warmed to Unsworth and genuinely think he'll take us up next season with the backing he's had, it still doesn't mean I'll agree with everything he does, I'm happy to admit when I get it wrong and my views aren't entrenched as others are on here and I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt but he fucked up with Vaughan and should of built the team round him.

 

 

 

[b0ndl1ne]

5 hours ago, yarddog73 said:

Let what go?, it's an opinion on a forum precious.

 

As for shithousery you do know Vaughan didn't play another minute for us again after that Altrincham game, he was 18 at the time and was made the scapegoat for that performance which was as bad as I've ever seen from a Latics team, it's not blown out of proportion it's fact and everything since then points to Unsworth getting the Vaughan situation very wrong, as for Couto I probably should cut him some slack but I don't rate him, he has age on his side and may well prove me wrong but I just don't see what he offers and he'd struggle to catch at Avro, it's not weird it's fact and the only thing weird in all this is how Unsworth somehow played;

 

Couto

Peck

Chapman

Wellens

Stobbs

Threlkeld 

Maynard

Burgess

Have I forgotten any????

 

In a midfield in front of him when we couldn't string two passes together let alone show any attacking intent.

 

I've warmed to Unsworth and genuinely think he'll take us up next season with the backing he's had, it still doesn't mean I'll agree with everything he does, I'm happy to admit when I get it wrong and my views aren't entrenched as others are on here and I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt but he fucked up with Vaughan and should of built the team round him.

 

 

 

There’s a good number of players who don’t want to come to us because of the style of play Unsworth plays and also what he’s like as a person. He’s a marmite character within the game