MATCH: Ebbsfleet United (H) 25/11/23

[League one forever]

Just now, LaticsEddie said:

Playing devils advocate, ST and NR ever had a full week of training to implement anything so we dont know how the football under him would have looked, making the unbeaten run in a congested set of fixtures look that bit more impressive...

 

So they didn’t have time to implement anything but went 6 unbeaten. . . So maybe his run was just lucky new manager bounce then. . . 

 

He had plenty of time, he chose to keep it tight and try and nick something. He did well, but the football was poor and 3 wins turned to 3 draws. Lots of fans said they couldn’t really see the difference between ST and Rhinoball. Maybe it was as simple as they actually liked ST and wanted to run more for him. But that doesn’t make him a good manager. 
 

From Mellon’s third game, the same players looked completely different. That isn’t luck. 

[League one forever]

I should also say for balance- that had they kept ST, no one could have argued because ultimately it’s a results business. 
 

It’s just that- we always seem to have managers who even when they do well results wise,  the football is shit.  
 

Under Mellon- I think we’ll get the best of both worlds in time. 
 

Good football, and good results. 

[LaticsEddie]

35 minutes ago, League one forever said:

 

So they didn’t have time to implement anything but went 6 unbeaten. . . So maybe his run was just lucky new manager bounce then. . . 

 

He had plenty of time, he chose to keep it tight and try and nick something. He did well, but the football was poor and 3 wins turned to 3 draws. Lots of fans said they couldn’t really see the difference between ST and Rhinoball. Maybe it was as simple as they actually liked ST and wanted to run more for him. But that doesn’t make him a good manager. 
 

From Mellon’s third game, the same players looked completely different. That isn’t luck. 

My point was if those two had a run of games Mellon has had, we might have been starting to see a shift away from Rhinoball. 

To say its bollocks ST and NR didnt get more out of the squad after ending a run of 1 win in 9 under Unsworth with 3 wins on the bounce just doesn't stand up to the facts. There was something there the players clearly bought into, be it tactically and/or mentally. Gardner came out in the Oldham Times and backed him, Reid said on the phone in there was a lot more work on the Opposition.

Dont take this as a criticism of MM, he is 100% the right man. I was just pointing out we dont know what a week or 2 working on a Thompson/Redfearn style might have come up with

[Londonboy]

20 hours ago, wiseowl said:

 

Yes - I would have given ST/NR longer and I said so at the time - why wouldn't that have been a sensible move after the pair instantly "stopped the rot" and went 6 unbeaten? Not a bad footing on which to have given them the rest of the season was it?

 

The club took the decision to part ways - thereafter, I have no problem with the MM appointment. Hope that clarifies.

 

I think our "management" timings have been awful i.e. should have binned off DU at the end of last season and given a new manager time to implement ideas during the close season. Equally, don't chop and change too rapidly like we have this time in mid-season; just doesn't work.

 

Ultimately, I suspect "relationships" had far too much sway in a) the initial appointment of DU et al  b) the delay in sacking him/them and c) the subsequent premature binning of the unbeaten duo of ST/NR (and this left a bad taste for me).

 

It can't be denied that ST/NR got more out of this squad than anyone else - including MM to date. We'd never have got a Fylde or Ebbsfleet hammering under them, in my opinion. Most people are now accepting that MM needs fresh players in. Let's hope the money is found for that. I desperately want us to get out of this league ASAP because it's a bloody awful standard to watch. I also want the home attendance for the club to be maintained/improved and you can feel it starting to ebb away (this Sat's true attendance will be interesting).

 

I hope the right people are now making the right decisions, based on objective criteria.

I'm not sure L2 standards are much better than in the NL?

Stockport Wrexham and Notts C are all in the top 6 and Chesterfield would be up there I'm sure.

Most teams relegated from L2 seem to struggle initiallty in the NL, and bar the newly promoted teams from NLN and S most I think would hold their own in L2, bar one or two....

 

 

 

[jsslatic]

Ebbsfleet was extremely poor and we fell to bits in the last ten minutes.

 

Maidenhead and Dagenham were equally bad without the last ten minute collapse. However both games we could have just as easily been pasted.

 

We were on a downward trajectory under ST and NR. I don't think anybody could have complained had we lost both of those home games comfortably. I wasn't at the Wealdstone or Kidderminster games but from reports/highlights the same applied to those.

 

I don't think Mellon has been lucky/unlucky in any of this results - in all games the outcome was what the performances warranted. That was not the case under ST/NR and it is likely their luck would have run out (because it always does).

[Londonboy]

21 minutes ago, LaticsEddie said:

My point was if those two had a run of games Mellon has had, we might have been starting to see a shift away from Rhinoball. 

To say its bollocks ST and NR didnt get more out of the squad after ending a run of 1 win in 9 under Unsworth with 3 wins on the bounce just doesn't stand up to the facts. There was something there the players clearly bought into, be it tactically and/or mentally. Gardner came out in the Oldham Times and backed him, Reid said on the phone in there was a lot more work on the Opposition.

Dont take this as a criticism of MM, he is 100% the right man. I was just pointing out we dont know what a week or 2 working on a Thompson/Redfearn style might have come up with

Doesn't matter really does it. We will never know so let's move on from the ST/NR conversation....

[Dave_Og]

1 hour ago, Londonboy said:

I'm not sure L2 standards are much better than in the NL?

Stockport Wrexham and Notts C are all in the top 6 and Chesterfield would be up there I'm sure.

Most teams relegated from L2 seem to struggle initiallty in the NL, and bar the newly promoted teams from NLN and S most I think would hold their own in L2, bar one or two....

 

 

 

 

That's because almost without exception the clubs that come down are in a dreadful state.  i.e. us

[TheBigDog]

2 hours ago, League one forever said:

From Mellon’s third game, the same players looked completely different. That isn’t luck. 

From game 4 onwards we have played Newport, Eastleigh, Woking, Barnet & Ebbsfleet.

 

Two of those performances (Newport & Ebbsfleet) were abject and I would argue that the players did not look completely different in those games.

 

Sandwiched in between we had two good away performances at Woking & Barnet plus a fairly mediocre display at home to Eastleigh.

 

Whereas I agree that the team has shown that it can play better football under MM, it has also demonstrated that it can revert to type as well.

 

Mellon has been in charge for eight games now and I think that we are seeing some improvements but it is still very much Work in Progress.

 

Its often said “let’s judge him after 10 games”  - so after Solihull away (or Gateshead away if we just count league games.)

 

Fair to say that we’ll have a much better idea come New Year

 

[Dave_Og]

11 minutes ago, TheBigDog said:

From game 4 onwards we have played Newport, Eastleigh, Woking, Barnet & Ebbsfleet.

 

Two of those performances (Newport & Ebbsfleet) were abject and I would argue that the players did not look completely different in those games.

 

Sandwiched in between we had two good away performances at Woking & Barnet plus a fairly mediocre display at home to Eastleigh.

 

Whereas I agree that the team has shown that it can play better football under MM, it has also demonstrated that it can revert to type as well.

 

Mellon has been in charge for eight games now and I think that we are seeing some improvements but it is still very much Work in Progress.

 

Its often said “let’s judge him after 10 games”  - so after Solihull away (or Gateshead away if we just count league games.)

 

Fair to say that we’ll have a much better idea come New Year

 

Gateshead at home I think?  Hope so as we've already played them away!

[yarddog73]

Thompson was unlikely to get it because he was unproven and Darren really had to go out and get the best man for the job (which is what he should have done before appointing Unsworth), imagine having a rookie manager in place and then the players churning out performances like they did at Fylde and against Ebbsfleet, we all feel a little more comfortable knowing we've got about the best man we could under the circumstances and are confident that he knows how to sort it out.

 

That's no slight on Thompson but we needed to take the emotion out of it and it wasnt the time to give another 50 odd year old coach a leg up.

 

As for judging either manager you can't on the sample size of games, it's difficult to argue a case on what we've seen for Mellon and then totally dismiss what Thompson did in charge but the difference is we have a proven manager with both the pedigree and track record which will buy him infinitely more time in my book, I'm yet to see what some are in Mellon's team yet but you can't polish a turd and I'll judge him when he's had opportunity to fix what he thinks is broken.

 

We look disorganised at the back since he turned up but that is probably more from him allowing players to express themselves rather than any tactical changes, I think he will have us going by the new year, he's got a nucleus there to take us forward and moving on from the Unsworth legacy is going to take time.

[League one forever]

1 hour ago, TheBigDog said:

From game 4 onwards we have played Newport, Eastleigh, Woking, Barnet & Ebbsfleet.

 

Two of those performances (Newport & Ebbsfleet) were abject and I would argue that the players did not look completely different in those games.

 

Sandwiched in between we had two good away performances at Woking & Barnet plus a fairly mediocre display at home to Eastleigh.

 

Whereas I agree that the team has shown that it can play better football under MM, it has also demonstrated that it can revert to type as well.

 

Mellon has been in charge for eight games now and I think that we are seeing some improvements but it is still very much Work in Progress.

 

Its often said “let’s judge him after 10 games”  - so after Solihull away (or Gateshead away if we just count league games.)

 

Fair to say that we’ll have a much better idea come New Year

 

Flyde and Ebbsfleet are unacceptable. 
 

Rochdale good signs. 
 

Alty and Eastleigh good signs. 
 

Woking and Barnet very good. 
 

In 5 of his 7 league games it’s been far better than anything I watched under DU and ST. 
 

 

 

 

[League one forever]

3 hours ago, LaticsEddie said:

To say its bollocks ST and NR didnt get more out of the squad after ending a run of 1 win in 9 under Unsworth with 3 wins on the bounce just doesn't stand up to the facts. There was something there the players clearly bought into, be it tactically and/or mentally. Gardner came out in the Oldham Times and backed him, Reid said on the phone in there was a lot more work on the Opposition.

I never said he didn’t get anything out of them, he clearly did. I was challenging the point he got more out of them than Mellon. Which in point return over 6 games he has, but the performances have been far better.

[nzlatic]

I find it a bit hypocritical to cite results and not performances when arguing that ST should have been kept on, but then also advocating for DU to have been sacked at the end of last season when he'd just delivered a 20+ game run of results that were top 3/4 standard.

 

I think the main thing though is we now have someone in who the majority of fans will feel confident in his ability to get us going in the right direction consistently.

[League one forever]

7 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

I find it a bit hypocritical to cite results and not performances when arguing that ST should have been kept on, but then also advocating for DU to have been sacked at the end of last season when he'd just delivered a 20+ game run of results that were top 3/4 standard.

Exactly NZ. 
 

We had Rhinoball that got results but nothing else and the vast majority said that wasn’t good enough. 
 

Now purely results are good enough. . 

We want both ideally. 
 

Mellon is well on his way to producing the holy grail. 

[planetarydeadlock]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:42 PM, Wardie said:

It's all relative to the league we are in, Ebbsfleet are in the same league as Latics, therefore, the playing field is level, is it not? It looks like only Chesterfield have the monopoly on consistent winning ways at the moment, bar the loss at Southend, who would be up there themselves if not for the points penalty and sanctions.

This league is rife with inconsistencies.
Mellon has the task of getting it right, so let's leave him to it.

 To be fair, his job was a lot easier when he walked into us in that league. Had a ready made defence (McNulty and Ihiekwe who now plays in the Championship, energetic midfield and two cheat code strikers (Andy Cook as well as Nors)

 

He may need a window or two to get it how he wants at yours. I saw the goals from your weekend game and thought 'nah Micky teams don't concede those'

[deyres42]

Have come to the conclusion that @League one forever is either Mellons agent, son or lover...

[League one forever]

31 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Have come to the conclusion that @League one forever is either Mellons agent, son or lover...

[wiseowl]

3 hours ago, nzlatic said:

I find it a bit hypocritical to cite results and not performances when arguing that ST should have been kept on, but then also advocating for DU to have been sacked at the end of last season when he'd just delivered a 20+ game run of results that were top 3/4 standard.

 

I think the main thing though is we now have someone in who the majority of fans will feel confident in his ability to get us going in the right direction consistently.

I'll repeat again - I think MM is the man for the job now. Doesn't stop me from thinking ST/NR were very harshly treated - and I don't think that was down to their management of the team. They achieved an amazing turnaround from what had gone before. Happy to leave it now - the debate has been (generally) good - thank you.

Edited November 29, 2023 by wiseowl
I`m an arse!

[nzlatic]

18 minutes ago, wiseowl said:

Really? Then I give up. ST/NR took us on an immediate unbeaten 6 game run after the dross DU served up. You think I`m a hypocrite; I don't think you've got a clue about football if you thought DU was ever going to come good.  

 

I'll repeat again - I think MM is the man for the job now. Doesn't stop me from thinking ST/NR were very harshly treated - and I don't think that was down to their management of the team. They achieved an amazing turnaround from what had gone before. Happy to leave it now - the debate has been (generally) good - thank you.

Where did I say that?

[oafcmetty]

You'd hope Thompson could get something out of the squad - he signed most of the useless fuckers!

[wiseowl]

22 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Where did I say that?

You didn't - I apologise. Teach me to skim read! 

[mcfluff1985]

13 hours ago, deyres42 said:

5 promotions is the new Carl Froch 80 thousand at Wwmbley...

Reminded me of the W Windows bit from White Gold

[BP1960]

2 hours ago, oafcmetty said:

You'd hope Thompson could get something out of the squad - he signed most of the useless fuckers!

 

I do know ST recommended many young players, but I understand DU wanted experience.

[AlanGrovesFanClub]

12 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

I do know ST recommended many young players, but I understand DU wanted experience.

That would be why Harry Vaughan got binned then. Ironic, given how Mr Rhino was brought in to build up a system / platform for the club to grow, yet we ended up with (a) crap football and (b) no chance for our own youth product in the team. The dream (nightmare) combo. 

[Gozza]

15 minutes ago, AlanGrovesFanClub said:

That would be why Harry Vaughan got binned then. Ironic, given how Mr Rhino was brought in to build up a system / platform for the club to grow, yet we ended up with (a) crap football and (b) no chance for our own youth product in the team. The dream (nightmare) combo. 

If I knew I wasn't a very good coach, I'd probably want to rely on experienced players!