Let the inquest begin.

[BP1960]

25 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

Similarly there's no evidence we don't use them too heavily. Why would we have a stats department if it wasn't fairly central to our recruitment? 

 

Stats department!! More trendy rubbish, you need a proper scouting network and management who will actually check  out recommendations.

It worked well at Nottingham Forest when I worked for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, the likes of Gary Birtles wouldn't even be found on any stats database.

 

[JoeP]

6 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Stats department!! More trendy rubbish, you need a proper scouting network and management who will actually check  out recommendations.

It worked well at Nottingham Forest when I worked for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, the likes of Gary Birtles wouldn't even be found on any stats database.

 

 

I mean I agree. Just because "that's not how recruitment is done anymore" in the game in general isn't a good enough reason not to do it like that, I don't think. 

 

I'm all for embracing modern ways of doing things, but it does feel we've gone balls deep into something that works for the top teams with lots of resources without really thinking about how it would work at our level..

[TheBigDog]

9 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Stats department!! More trendy rubbish, you need a proper scouting network and management who will actually check  out recommendations.

It worked well at Nottingham Forest when I worked for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, the likes of Gary Birtles wouldn't even be found on any stats database.

 

Gary Birtles joined Forest in 1982 - that’s 42 years ago!

It was a different time and things in football have changed dramatically since then…

 

Sadly your argument is outdated and no longer valid

- time to get real methinks

 

[nzlatic]

41 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

Similarly there's no evidence we don't use them too heavily. Why would we have a stats department if it wasn't fairly central to our recruitment? 

But I've not said we don't use them too heavily. I don't know how much we've relied on them. My opinion is that I think they should be an asset but they need to be used more effectively. Every aspect of our recruitment department needs to operate more effectively this summer. 

[nzlatic]

15 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Stats department!! More trendy rubbish, you need a proper scouting network and management who will actually check  out recommendations.

It worked well at Nottingham Forest when I worked for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, the likes of Gary Birtles wouldn't even be found on any stats database.

 

I feel like I'm screaming into the void here but they already do this!!!!! Stats are used to increase the pool of players that the scouting team go and actually scout! They've told us this. So either you think they're lying or you are just ignoring what they say. I don't for one second believe that we sign players purely off stats without any other checks at all.

[GlossopLatic]

17 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Stats department!! More trendy rubbish, you need a proper scouting network and management who will actually check  out recommendations.

It worked well at Nottingham Forest when I worked for Brian Clough and Peter Taylor, the likes of Gary Birtles wouldn't even be found on any stats database.

 

 

Yes and we weren't also discussing our football clubs on the Internet back then either I'm sure the Internet was seen as trendy rubbish too then eh?

 

 

[nzlatic]

So...

We need a young progressive coach.

 

But also...

we don't need any new fangled stats tech.

Or any new fangled job titles.

Or any new fangled departments.

We need the chaddy to be the home end.

We need to recruit like Joe Royle did.

 

What we actually need is a time machine to take us back to the early 90s when we were last good.

 

Or, if we can't do that, we need to get the recruitment right. We have great owners. We have an experienced board with football people on it. We have much improved infrastructure with much more improvement planned. We have a manager with a track record of success.

 

Get the recruitment right this summer and I'm confident we'll kick on next season. 

[BP1960]

2 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said:

 

How can you conclude something is wrong without understanding how it works?

 

I'm asking if you can confirm the manager actually watches all stats bomb recommendations himself. If he doesn't how can say he know what a good player he is?

[Sparkleking]

15 minutes ago, TheBigDog said:

Gary Birtles joined Forest in 1982 - that’s 42 years ago!

It was a different time and things in football have changed dramatically since then…

 

Sadly your argument is outdated and no longer valid

- time to get real methinks

 

Actually 1976 so 48 years ago.  He did sign again for Forest in 1982 after being at Man Utd for a couple of years.

[JohnnyPimp]

1 hour ago, GlossopLatic said:

Another thread where everyone says the stats bomb is wrong without understanding how it works or how we've used them.

I’ve got no idea how it’s used and if it’s at the root of our recruitment issues.

 

I do think it’s worth noting that the two teams in the division using Stats Bomb (us and York), also spent the most on agents’ fees.

 

Causation or correlation?

[100milesaway]

Lets just make it simple.  Instead of signing lots of dross, most of whom have a chip on their shoulder, and an attitude problem . Or are arrogant. And those that don't want to put the hard graft and dedication in to actually achieve something.. And only seem to be interested in  achieving a footballers lifestyle .

 

Find some young fellas who's sole aim in life, is to become a success at actually being good at playing football.

[yarddog73]

1 hour ago, yarddog73 said:

If Darren Royle wasn't related to a club legend he'd have been out on his ear months ago, he's clearly out of his depth and that's before you take in to account him undermining Shez to get his pal in the building at the start of the Rothwells tenure which to me will set us back 3 years, he's fucking useless and we are still no clearer what the 'plan' is. 

 

He's making the football decisions so the buck stops with him, even in the last transfer window we saw the same mistakes being made and personally I'm reluctant to pump money into something I just don't feel engaged in anymore, sad that really with the opportunity we've been given but the silence out of he club and the lack of communication on so many levels is piss poor.

 

For me there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the business is being run day to day and until the culture changes around the place and plans are put in place for us to actually improve and progress then we will continue to struggle.

 

No stats system in the world would allow us to play the best part of two seasons with no recognisable rightback whilst continuing to harvest the same footed centrehalf (we had four right footed centrehalves playing across the back four last night - quite astonishing really) or a plethora of strikers who get no service, recruitment is being overseen by fucking idiots and whoever is in charge of it should be first out of the door.

 

At the moment we are indebted to the Rothwells money but that isn't infinite, we can't continue to run the business so poorly, it's actually amateur on so many levels and needs addressing, structurally we need an overhaul because nobody will buy in to this as it stands and trust me if this isn't resolved now it will roll in to next season.

 

Unbelievably we still had something to play for last night but only 380 of 1900 fans who'd bought tickets initially could be arsed and that's with only two games to play and a play off place quite incredibly still up for grabs, if that didn't make the Rothwells sit up and think then I don't know what will.

 

If I were them I'd rip it up and start again but unfortunately they are all in bed together when really they should be putting business before pleasure. It's a big mess and with every passing year a missed opportunity yet nothing is likely to change, apart from the crowds slowly declining - again.

 

 

Forgot to add that on top of the four right footed centrehalves we played across our back four last night we played another one in front of them in an holding midfield role so that's five players who effectively play the same position in the same team.

 

Talking about McGahey it was painful watching him shuffle about like a three legged hippo last night, honestly if he's the answer we are fucked, Halifax were so much more dynamic and forward thinking on the ball and made our players look like sloths at times.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

I've always said we need to sign a right 'orrible, hard bastard in midfield. Gregan-esque impact on the team. 90% of our on-field problems would evaoporate overnight.

[BP1960]

32 minutes ago, 100milesaway said:

Lets just make it simple.  Instead of signing lots of dross, most of whom have a chip on their shoulder, and an attitude problem . Or are arrogant. And those that don't want to put the hard graft and dedication in to actually achieve something.. And only seem to be interested in  achieving a footballers lifestyle .

 

Find some young fellas who's sole aim in life, is to become a success at actually being good at playing football.

 

Always been what I've looked for. 

Alas fell on deaf ears.

Edited April 19 by BP1960

[deckyd]

This season I have not seen 3 of our league games in total. I've watched the BT games and others when we have had no match.  League in general strikes me as being full of average players on the whole, with a few good exceptions thrown into each side. 

Seems to be the common thread through each side of hard work, running, particular mindset, style of play and determination.  I have not added passing to a team mate as other teams in this league struggle with this aspect as well as us, - Chesterfield had more better players than not.

Playing as a team and what is lacking in quality is made up for with the above types of traits, playing to strengths.  I do not see the side we have as a team at all and they certainly do not play to each others strengths. 

 

I think in general we failed mostly due to lack of ability to run, work hard, a clear lack of determination and confusing styles play- in the sense that at times we played good football, followed by the next match being hoof ball!  We have perceived quality players for this level, Norwood,  Conlon, Raglan, Garner and Hobson.  Surely we should have had enough to make the top 7 with the right attitude and commitment even with the hoof ball aspect to our game which did work for some time. 

Balance has been a horrible issue, as others have mentioned and signings have not worked, but even at that, this team unperformed in so many fundamental basic areas (which are givens for this league, hard work etc.) is frightening. I do believe the players on most occasions felt that they only need to turn up to win, they have been caught out so many times this season, outworked and also outplayed by sides due to their willingness to run, work hard and be committed, an attitude most "smaller" sides had when playing at Boundary Park.  We have made very poor sides look a lot better over the course of 90 minutes, Ebbsfleet at home is just one example.

 

I am not sure if Mellon is the right man to take most of this side forward into next season as a good majority of squad will still be here i suspect.  Even if he signs the players he wants in a perfect scenario for him, he is still gong to call on players in the squad that has downed tools on him currently.  I would love to see our side play fast free flowing football with quality throughout the team, but i would gladly settle for style of play that exudes effort and determination as a basis to work from with more of the type of performances with the ball on the floor.  Winning horrible has ultimately not worked and i do not believe the fan base will suffer these performances at the start of next season or thereafter, see David Unsworth, Ronnie Moore etc.  

 

Did i enjoy the season as a whole- no I most certainly did not, too many performances were not up to any sort of acceptable standard.

Highlight, Aldershot at home, expectation level rose after that game! Mentions for Dale and Barnet away and i suppose Oxford at home. I enjoyed about 7 games!

 

 

Edited April 19 by deckyd

[BerlinBlue]

1 hour ago, GlossopLatic said:

 

Yes and we weren't also discussing our football clubs on the Internet back then either I'm sure the Internet was seen as trendy rubbish too then eh?

 

 

Yes, and our "traditional" scouting methods have made it so we haven't been in 30 years of decline either...!

My word, what is so scary about stats and incorporating a bit of data analysis into our scouting methods? We don't even know for sure how we use this information. Just something else to moan about, even though there's no proof as to what the moan is about. 

[BP1960]

13 minutes ago, deckyd said:

This season I have not seen 3 of our league games in total. I've watched the BT games and others when we have had no match.  League in general strikes me as being full of average players on the whole, with a few good exceptions thrown into each side. 

Seems to be the common thread through each side of hard work, running, particular mindset, style of play and determination.  I have not added passing to a team mate as other teams in this league struggle with this aspect as well as us, - Chesterfield had more better players than not.

Playing as a team and what is lacking in quality is made up for with the above types of traits, playing to strengths.  I do not see the side we have as a team at all and they certainly do not play to each others strengths. 

 

I think in general we failed mostly due to lack of ability to run, work hard, a clear lack of determination and confusing styles play- in the sense that at times we played good football, followed by the next match being hoof ball!  We have perceived quality players for this level, Norwood,  Conlon, Raglan, Garner and Hobson.  Surely we should have had enough to make the top 7 with the right attitude and commitment even with the hoof ball aspect to our game which did work for some time. 

Balance has been a horrible issue, as others have mentioned and signings have not worked, but even at that, this team unperformed in so many fundamental basic areas (which are givens for this league, hard work etc.) is frightening. I do believe the players on most occasions felt that they only need to turn up to win, they have been caught out so many times this season, outworked and also outplayed by sides due to their willingness to run, work hard and be committed, an attitude most "smaller" sides had when playing at Boundary Park.  We have made very poor sides look a lot better over the course of 90 minutes, Ebbsfleet at home is just one example.

 

I am not sure if Mellon is the right man to take most of this side forward into next season as a good majority of squad will still be here i suspect.  Even if he signs the players he wants in a perfect scenario for him, he is still gong to call on players in the squad that has downed tools on him currently.  I would love to see our side play fast free flowing football with quality throughout the team, but i would gladly settle for style of play that exudes effort and determination as a basis to work from with more of the type of performances with the ball on the floor.  Winning horrible has ultimately not worked and i do not believe the fan base will suffer these performances at the start of next season or thereafter, see David Unsworth, Ronnie Moore etc.  

 

Did i enjoy the season as a whole- no I most certainly did not, too many performances were not up to any sort of acceptable standard.

Highlight, Aldershot at home, expectation level rose after that game! Mentions for Dale and Barnet away and i suppose Oxford at home. I enjoyed about 7 games!

 

 

 

You are spot on about work rate. I watched Real Madrid who's players are earning fortunes work tremendously hard for each other, there always seemed to be half a dozen in packs attacking or defending.

Why our players always look tired is a mystery to me.

 

[BP1960]

13 minutes ago, BerlinBlue said:

Yes, and our "traditional" scouting methods have made it so we haven't been in 30 years of decline either...!

My word, what is so scary about stats and incorporating a bit of data analysis into our scouting methods? We don't even know for sure how we use this information. Just something else to moan about, even though there's no proof as to what the moan is about. 

 

The proof is the players signed by DU, who admitted ticking the stats bombs boxes to search for players.

Edited April 19 by BP1960

[deyres42]

The biggest problem isn't the use of stats or perceived attitudes of players, it is repeatedly employing managers who are scared stiff of letting a football match break out.

[JoeP]

27 minutes ago, BerlinBlue said:

Yes, and our "traditional" scouting methods have made it so we haven't been in 30 years of decline either...!

My word, what is so scary about stats and incorporating a bit of data analysis into our scouting methods? We don't even know for sure how we use this information. Just something else to moan about, even though there's no proof as to what the moan is about. 

 

But this is the most potential we've had off the pitch for 30 years! You can't compare where we are now with the last 30 years of decline. 

 

"Something else to moan about" is another man's leaving no stone unturned. How can the stats recruitment model be completely discounted as an issue? We've got an imbalanced squad, who don't really seem to have much team spirit and don't seem to gel on the pitch. That sounds to me like we've just looked at a players attributes rather than the person too. From the outside, it looks like someone's been playing too much Football Manager, even without knowing the ins and outs of Statbomb, etc.

 

Yes, it works at a higher level, but they're teams that can afford to throw 100 darts with the hope one hits the bullseye. We can't. 

 

Edited April 19 by JoeP

[Dave_Og]

I'm trying to understand how now it ever managers regularly watch(ed) players they were interested in signing with any degree of frequency. We've played Tuesday/Saturday almost weekly since Mellon arrived and Tuesdays and Saturdays are when most players we might have been interested in were probably playing 

[GlossopLatic]

11 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

But this is the most potential we've had off the pitch for 30 years! You can't compare where we are now with the last 30 years of decline. 

 

"Something else to moan about" is another man's leaving no stone unturned. How can the stats recruitment model be completely discounted as an issue? We've got an imbalanced squad, who don't really seem to have much team spirit and don't seem to gel on the pitch. That sounds to me like we've just looked at a players attributes rather than the person too. From the outside, it looks like someone's been playing too much Football Manager.

 

Yes, it works at a higher level, but they're teams that can afford to throw 100 darts with the hope one hits the bullseye. We can't. 

 

It shouldn't be discounted as an issue but as has been said above by you and one 2 others some are rushing to the conclusion that it's the problem.

 

Success leaves the clues the fact that all the top clubs and athletes across any sport across the world are using data analysis to enhance performance probably suggests they are onto something. It could well be that they are using it properly but we aren't.

[PeteG]

1 hour ago, nzlatic said:

So...

We need a young progressive coach.

 

But also...

we don't need any new fangled stats tech.

Or any new fangled job titles.

Or any new fangled departments.

We need the chaddy to be the home end.

We need to recruit like Joe Royle did.

 

What we actually need is a time machine to take us back to the early 90s when we were last good.

 

Or, if we can't do that, we need to get the recruitment right. We have great owners. We have an experienced board with football people on it. We have much improved infrastructure with much more improvement planned. We have a manager with a track record of success.

 

Get the recruitment right this summer and I'm confident we'll kick on next season. 

Who are these football people you refer to on the board? With the exception of Joe, I can't see anyone on the board with football experience and we don't know what Joe does or if he is just a figure head. The Rothwell's have been quoted as saying they know nothing about football and we've an inexperienced CEO in football. I've said it before, but before even thinking of sacking the manager or any further investment in the squad they need a total rethink on how the club is being run from the top.

[GlossopLatic]

1 hour ago, JohnnyPimp said:

I’ve got no idea how it’s used and if it’s at the root of our recruitment issues.

 

I do think it’s worth noting that the two teams in the division using Stats Bomb (us and York), also spent the most on agents’ fees.

 

Causation or correlation?

 

A possibility yes but not something we know for certain

 

But the point Im really driving at here is that it's easy to draw conclusions based on assumptions.

 

What is critical this summer is that we get to the root of the recruitment problem it's a pivotal summer this one for us Get it right and we can really build sone momentum.

[nzlatic]

8 minutes ago, PeteG said:

Who are these football people you refer to on the board? With the exception of Joe, I can't see anyone on the board with football experience and we don't know what Joe does or if he is just a figure head. The Rothwell's have been quoted as saying they know nothing about football and we've an inexperienced CEO in football. I've said it before, but before even thinking of sacking the manager or any further investment in the squad they need a total rethink on how the club is being run from the top.

Aren’t there members of our board that have had experience in football? I don’t mean played or coached, but had previous involvement in football clubs or administration?