Let the inquest begin.

[BP1960]

Can anyone send me the stat bombs attributes of our youth team player Alfie Atherton?

I bet they don't tick the required boxes, yet my own eyes tell me he's going to be a  great player. Who will be right in the future I wonder?

[JoeP]

4 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said:

 

It shouldn't be discounted as an issue but as has been said above by you and one 2 others some are rushing to the conclusion that it's the problem.

 

Success leaves the clues the fact that all the top clubs and athletes across any sport across the world are using data analysis to enhance performance probably suggests they are onto something. It could well be that they are using it properly but we aren't.

 

Yes, agreed. It also probably needs to be tailored for this level, if York are also using it in the same way. 

 

It is a problem, if we're using it in the way I suspect. It should be an extra tool for recruitment, rather than the main tool. As I say, the fact that we have a collection of individuals, rather than a team suggests to me that our recruitment has been heavily stats/attributes based and it hasn't worked. 

 

I don't mind them trying it and it not working, but they don't seem to have gone back to the drawing board at any point. They seem to be persevering with the way they use it at great cost. 

[nzlatic]

1 hour ago, JohnnyPimp said:

I’ve got no idea how it’s used and if it’s at the root of our recruitment issues.

 

I do think it’s worth noting that the two teams in the division using Stats Bomb (us and York), also spent the most on agents’ fees.

 

Causation or correlation?

Correlation just based on the evidence we have. 
 

If we had a new data driven system for rehabilitating injured players that all the top clubs were using with varying success, but our rehabilitation rates were not improving. Then it’s more likely an issue as to how that system is being implemented than a fault with the system itself. 

[nzlatic]

3 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

Yes, agreed. It also probably needs to be tailored for this level, if York are also using it in the same way. 

 

It is a problem, if we're using it in the way I suspect. It should be an extra tool for recruitment, rather than the main tool. As I say, the fact that we have a collection of individuals, rather than a team suggests to me that our recruitment has been heavily stats/attributes based and it hasn't worked. 

 

I don't mind them trying it and it not working, but they don't seem to have gone back to the drawing board at any point. They seem to be persevering with the way they use it at great cost. 

It could be the stats. But it could also be down to either Unsworth or Thompson or how they worked together. How skilled were they at identifying the right characters? It could also be loads of other things or a combination!
 

I have lots more faith in Mellon and Brabin to identify those traits we need than I would in Unsworth. 

[PeteG]

1 minute ago, nzlatic said:

Aren’t there members of our board that have had experience in football? I don’t mean played or coached, but had previous involvement in football clubs or administration?

With the exception of the Royles not that i'm aware. Peter Norberry was on the board at Wigan Warriors for a time I think but looking at some of the press releases regarding that, it wasn't wholly successful. Tbh, i'm not sure too many boards at football clubs will have people previously involved in football but i think the important thing for the board is to recruit people who have and the most important position should be the CEO. When was the last time the club actually employed a really good CEO or MD? My personal thoughts are we should get a CEO who employs a Director of Football to oversee the football side of things, whether that's Darren Royle or not is for the board to decide but the DoF needs to work closely with the manager, the recruitment team, the youth set up. Need to get all these things right and then we might start to see some progress. A long term plan essentially which is what i thought they were doing but seems to have gone out of the window at the first sign of some poor results. Since then we seem from the outside to have gone into panic mode and just thrown money at it signing players left right and centre without any real thought process to a system, resale value or length of contracts. I'm repeating myself here, but we have relied on several players throughout the season that were actually signed by Shez and the previous owners which is criminal really.

[BP1960]

30 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

Yes, agreed. It also probably needs to be tailored for this level, if York are also using it in the same way. 

 

It is a problem, if we're using it in the way I suspect. It should be an extra tool for recruitment, rather than the main tool. As I say, the fact that we have a collection of individuals, rather than a team suggests to me that our recruitment has been heavily stats/attributes based and it hasn't worked. 

 

I don't mind them trying it and it not working, but they don't seem to have gone back to the drawing board at any point. They seem to be persevering with the way they use it at great cost. 

 

I admit I used stats in the 1980/90s, Rothman's annual was my source.

I'd look for any  teenage central defenders and centre forwards over 6ft 3" and the  likes of Ian Marshall would turn up. But it was only a guide to follow up on and  I needed to watch them myself to see if they were suitable.

So I'm not against stats bombs, but they can change quickly with the age of a player.

For example a young player may or may not develop or an older player decline after 30yo. They also don't take into account any injury or personal problems.

Used in conjuction with actual scouting it can be a useful tool.

Edited April 19 by BP1960

[oafcmetty]

29 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

I admit I used stats in the 1980/90s, Rothman's annual was my source.

I'd look for any  teenage central defenders and centre forwards over 6ft 3" and the  likes of Ian Marshall would turn up.

He's 6ft1

[nzlatic]

33 minutes ago, PeteG said:

With the exception of the Royles not that i'm aware. Peter Norberry was on the board at Wigan Warriors for a time I think but looking at some of the press releases regarding that, it wasn't wholly successful. Tbh, i'm not sure too many boards at football clubs will have people previously involved in football but i think the important thing for the board is to recruit people who have and the most important position should be the CEO. When was the last time the club actually employed a really good CEO or MD? My personal thoughts are we should get a CEO who employs a Director of Football to oversee the football side of things, whether that's Darren Royle or not is for the board to decide but the DoF needs to work closely with the manager, the recruitment team, the youth set up. Need to get all these things right and then we might start to see some progress. A long term plan essentially which is what i thought they were doing but seems to have gone out of the window at the first sign of some poor results. Since then we seem from the outside to have gone into panic mode and just thrown money at it signing players left right and centre without any real thought process to a system, resale value or length of contracts. I'm repeating myself here, but we have relied on several players throughout the season that were actually signed by Shez and the previous owners which is criminal really.

The issue with a long term plan is that it may require patience as it takes time to implement and hone. Which could mean more time at this level. I agree with a lot of what you’ve said about plan and structure. My guess is that the board have decided all that may have to wait until we’re a league club again. That short term strategy is the way to go to achieve that initial objective of getting back in the league. 

[PeteG]

8 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

The issue with a long term plan is that it may require patience as it takes time to implement and hone. Which could mean more time at this level. I agree with a lot of what you’ve said about plan and structure. My guess is that the board have decided all that may have to wait until we’re a league club again. That short term strategy is the way to go to achieve that initial objective of getting back in the league. 

It also needs balls to see it through and not pander to the naysayers when you hit a rough patch. It means having the right people in place in the first instance. We appeared to be doing this and I understand mistakes will be made and some people will need to be replaced such as Unsworth but we seem to have ripped up the whole plan completely by getting rid of the recruitment team at the same time. We chased players like Willoughby Lundstram and the lad from Gateshead (can't even think of his name now) yet then went and signed Norwood and Raglan last minute because they were too good to turn down and there agents no doubt came knocking looking for a payday. I'm not saying these weren't decent players but they weren't in the plan and resulted in the above players and the likes of Reid and Nuttall getting little time to play or settle in. Who knows what that did to the squad morale? Suddenly the plan was out of the window and were throwing anything and everything at it. We need a clear plan now and we need to hear from the club officially what it entails so we can all buy into it. Start again but I'm fearful it will be on a much reduced budget now. We've lost 2 years and a lot of potential momentum and goodwill.

[BP1960]

58 minutes ago, oafcmetty said:

He's 6ft1

 

Was 6'3" in my Rothmans.

[Bobledgersheart]

19 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Was 6'3" in my Rothmans.

Smoking stunts your growth !   

[GlossopLatic]

Marc White pre match team talk

 

Whiz it through to when Marc White does his pre match prior to the Oldham game he mentions about beingbable to out work us mentions about Hogan ability to win aerial duals and the importance of making the first contact with us it's something to think about but I'm not surprised he believes we can be outworked we have a lack of running power in the team.

[JohnnyPimp]

1 hour ago, nzlatic said:

Correlation just based on the evidence we have. 
 

If we had a new data driven system for rehabilitating injured players that all the top clubs were using with varying success, but our rehabilitation rates were not improving. Then it’s more likely an issue as to how that system is being implemented than a fault with the system itself. 

I was mischievously suggesting that Stats Bomb is programmed to push certain agents’ players up the list, similar to Google ads.

 

Much more likely that we had to throw a chunk of change at agents to get deals such as Norwood’s and Raglan’s over the line in the face of ‘huge interest from other parties’.

[Londonboy]

3 hours ago, BP1960 said:

Can anyone send me the stat bombs attributes of our youth team player Alfie Atherton?

I bet they don't tick the required boxes, yet my own eyes tell me he's going to be a  great player. Who will be right in the future I wonder?

You may be right but if he's a hot prospect why has he not been picked up by a bigger club? They could get him for peanuts if they saw any potential in him?

[Londonboy]

3 hours ago, JoeP said:

 

Yes, agreed. It also probably needs to be tailored for this level, if York are also using it in the same way. 

 

It is a problem, if we're using it in the way I suspect. It should be an extra tool for recruitment, rather than the main tool. As I say, the fact that we have a collection of individuals, rather than a team suggests to me that our recruitment has been heavily stats/attributes based and it hasn't worked. 

 

I don't mind them trying it and it not working, but they don't seem to have gone back to the drawing board at any point. They seem to be persevering with the way they use it at great cost. 

York spent the most on agents in our league by a mile....£130k this year ,and nearly got relegated, so yes the evidence suggests it needs modification for the Ntaional League!!

[AndyB2]

16 hours ago, Fervid said:

Darren Royle has a lot to answer for. 

And yet we never hear from him.

 

I spend a lot of money on this club. Bought tat from the club shop - extortionate pricing for kids tops - and yet I hear zip from him. 

[deyres42]

16 minutes ago, AndyB2 said:

And yet we never hear from him.

 

I spend a lot of money on this club. Bought tat from the club shop - extortionate pricing for kids tops - and yet I hear zip from him. 

Well we do but you have to pay for the privilege, which apparently is absolutely fine and normal.

[GlossopLatic]

3 hours ago, JoeP said:

 

Yes, agreed. It also probably needs to be tailored for this level, if York are also using it in the same way. 

 

It is a problem, if we're using it in the way I suspect. It should be an extra tool for recruitment, rather than the main tool. As I say, the fact that we have a collection of individuals, rather than a team suggests to me that our recruitment has been heavily stats/attributes based and it hasn't worked. 

 

I don't mind them trying it and it not working, but they don't seem to have gone back to the drawing board at any point. They seem to be persevering with the way they use it at great cost. 

 

Which is why this summer is a crucial one for us because we have to learn from those mistakes in recruitment whatever they maybe from the last 2 years. I think the current hierarchy is capable of critical thought unlike the last lot so I think they will learn lessons from this and we will come back stronger.

[Dave_Og]

2 hours ago, oafcmetty said:

He's 6ft1

Plus perm

[PeteG]

45 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Well we do but you have to pay for the privilege, which apparently is absolutely fine and normal.

This is exactly why he should be addressing the fan base as a whole via official channels. We should and are entitled to some kind of update next week once the season is finished especially as they are asking people to part with their hard earned. If we don't get anything in terms of accepting mistakes or some kind of plan and whether the budget will remain the same or has to be cut (which I think most people expect) then I can see renewals being significantly down.

[deyres42]

9 minutes ago, PeteG said:

This is exactly why he should be addressing the fan base as a whole via official channels. We should and are entitled to some kind of update next week once the season is finished especially as they are asking people to part with their hard earned. If we don't get anything in terms of accepting mistakes or some kind of plan and whether the budget will remain the same or has to be cut (which I think most people expect) then I can see renewals being significantly down.

I agree. I think they'll probably put something out.

[yarddog73]

10 game winless league run is the third worst in the past 20 years and it's still going.

 

10/11 season under Dickov we went 12 in the League without a win and the grim Kelly/Dunn run that went on for 11 winless in 15/16.

 

We've been served up some right shite the last couple of decades but this latest run is right up there with the worst and the least expected, actually in 5th with games in hand with nine to play, awful.

 

Not a chance I'm bothering to watch that shite tomorrow in the flesh.

[League one forever]

33 minutes ago, PeteG said:

This is exactly why he should be addressing the fan base as a whole via official channels. We should and are entitled to some kind of update next week once the season is finished especially as they are asking people to part with their hard earned. If we don't get anything in terms of accepting mistakes or some kind of plan and whether the budget will remain the same or has to be cut (which I think most people expect) then I can see renewals being significantly down.

Million percent. 
 

I don’t want or expect a full breakdown of every decision, but I think the board in particular need to say something and show some accountability- I say the board, because they are the running the overall business and are accountable for what is spent - Mellon and the players are just passing through. 

[League one forever]

8 hours ago, JoeP said:

Could get quite cathartic this thread..

 

As LOF said in the OP and I've said elsewhere, we've used stats too heavily.  We've brought in a (over-inflated) squad of individuals based on stats, rather than built a team based on a mix of ability and personality.  Darren Royle takes a heavy share of that responsibility, I guess.  

 

Football's a simple game, especially at this level.  We seemed to decide on an over-complex recruitment strategy and just thrown more and more (of Frank's!) money at it in the hope that it works, rather than taking a cautious approach and seeing how it works out.

 

I'm still reluctant to put Mellon near the top of the blame pile.   These players haven't played for two managers now and he still hasn't really put his own mark on the team with the aim of getting to "what good looks like".  He seems fed-up.  Maybe he's been mis-sold the club, in the same way that Norwood seems to have been.  Maybe in spite of some good people in charge of the club, there's not a lot of shrewd football knowledge about and we're actually not being run as well as we or he were expecting.  We've got a lot of these players next year thanks to the big contracts handed out and Mellon, understandably, is struggling to come up with an idea to move forward with them.  That said, his reluctance to stick with a settled first eleven, his reluctance to try any of the youth players and his weird subs does have a few alarm bells ringing. 

 

As we're stuck with a lot of the players for next year, we've got to find a way of improving the squad with what resources we've got.  There are some players there that would fit into a good team, if they had the right characters around them.  Lundstram for example, has been disappointing this season but I think if he had more positive players around him, he'd be a real asset.  Having positive players around the place is important, to perhaps bring the likes of Lundstram through who is a talented player but maybe has fragile confidence.  I'd keep the Big Mike and Gardner mainly for that reason and with the possibility of the odd cameo.  (Puts hard-hat on)  With that in mind, the first person I'd move on is James Norwood.  Yes, he's out top scorer, but I can't see him being so next season here (unless we get quite a few penalties again..). For £5k a week, I didn't think we were getting just a goal-scorer, but a senior player who would help develop the younger players in a positive way, but he seems to have the air of someone who thinks "this is shit and everyone around me is shit", which is not helpful.  It's no coincidence that we were playing well without him and then went back to being awful once he returned - even last night we concede as soon as he walks on the pitch!  It's nothing to do with him not smiling or celebrating - anyone who thinks that's an issue is an idiot.  Similarly - anyone who keeps referring to that being the only reason people don't like him are also idiots.

 

There's obviously something not right in the dressing room - check out the lack of congratulations and joy in the team when Gardner scored the penalty last night.  With a modicum of extra effort over a couple of these final games, we could have achieved something - had the chance to play at Wembley.  Something a lot of these players will never get the chance to do in their careers again.  That seems to me like there's either an attitude problem or the club is so rotten, the players are devoid of any motivation for the club, the fans or themselves, which is the biggest worry of them all.

 

 

We might need better players - but we definitely need better personalities.

 

 

Great post Joe.

[mcfluff1985]

7 hours ago, BP1960 said:

 

I'm asking if you can confirm the manager actually watches all stats bomb recommendations himself. If he doesn't how can say he know what a good player he is?

 

Can you confirm he doesn't?

 

 

2 hours ago, Londonboy said:

You may be right but if he's a hot prospect why has he not been picked up by a bigger club? They could get him for peanuts if they saw any potential in him?

 

Maybe they looked and thought his temperament is poor because he has been sent off twice this season.