MATCH: Torquay United (H) 11/12/22 (Sunday)

[nzlatic]

9 minutes ago, Magic Mikey said:

What were you saying when we made the final of the Nations League?

Let’s face it, if someone doesn’t like Southgate (and I’m sure this has nothing to do with things like knee taking of course) then they’re going to cherry pick statistics to suit their narrative. 
 

[wiseowl]

31 minutes ago, Magic Mikey said:

What were you saying when we made the final of the Nations League?

Nothing - because we've never made it there.

[wiseowl]

19 minutes ago, IanMarshall's Mullet said:

Nice

 

So you think me saying that it was the best I’ve seen him play is untrue or as you say bullshit?  Well I can assure you I did think that. 
 

Can I respectfully suggest you read posts properly and understand them before replying because I said it was the best I’ve actually seen him play. I didn’t say he was brilliant

I think McFluff was actually agreeing with you mate - he just has a strange way of putting it sometimes. Think - he was being sarcastic about those who have already written him off - cheers.

[wiseowl]

25 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Let’s face it, if someone doesn’t like Southgate (and I’m sure this has nothing to do with things like knee taking of course) then they’re going to cherry pick statistics to suit their narrative. 
 

No it's got nothing to do with silly, vacuous gestures - we just won't win anything with Southgate in charge, in my opinion - he's not got a winning mentality.

 

P.S. How is quoting a full year's statistics cherry picking?!

[whittles left foot]

5 hours ago, GlossopLatic said:

I'm not sure what game you were watching Saturday night but that wasn't an overly cautious England performance we took the game to the world champions and probably were the better team certainly in the second half.

Watched the same game as you I think but no rose coloured specs on here.

Took the game to them my arse? First half usual sit back and let them come at us-done it all competition. One down-as I said now chasing the game and start to play second half. We have the players to do much better.

[mcfluff1985]

54 minutes ago, wiseowl said:

Strange comment given that England's win rate in 2022 is 38% and we were relegated to UEFA Nations League B, less than 3 months ago, after the dismal loss against Italy and following the national team's worst run of form in over 8 years (including not scoring a goal from open play in 452 minutes).

 

Appreciate it's all about opinions but we played "nobody" in the world cup - until we played a rather lack lustre France, who were there for the taking if we're honest. However, despite all the hype about our forward players, once again, we could not score from open play.

 

Throw in that France's goals were partly down to the obvious weaknesses in our team (i.e. keeper and central defenders) and it ranks as a poor tournament for us.

Forgot we count friendlies

[Magic Mikey]

33 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Let’s face it, if someone doesn’t like Southgate (and I’m sure this has nothing to do with things like knee taking of course) then they’re going to cherry pick statistics to suit their narrative. 
 

The thing it's got nothing to do with might have explained the ridiculous bollocks. 

[mcfluff1985]

38 minutes ago, IanMarshall's Mullet said:

Nice

 

So you think me saying that it was the best I’ve seen him play is untrue or as you say bullshit?  Well I can assure you I did think that. 
 

Can I respectfully suggest you read posts properly and understand them before replying because I said it was the best I’ve actually seen him play. I didn’t say he was brilliant

I understood. I was being sarcastic. After 1 game people called him shite

[Bobledgersheart]

2 minutes ago, mcfluff1985 said:

I understood. I was being sarcastic. After 1 game people called him shite

Got one more than a lot have then !!  

[disjointed]

1 hour ago, wiseowl said:

Strange comment given that England's win rate in 2022 is 38% and we were relegated to UEFA Nations League B, less than 3 months ago, after the dismal loss against Italy and following the national team's worst run of form in over 8 years (including not scoring a goal from open play in 452 minutes).

 

Appreciate it's all about opinions but we played "nobody" in the world cup - until we played a rather lack lustre France, who were there for the taking if we're honest. However, despite all the hype about our forward players, once again, we could not score from open play.

 

Throw in that France's goals were partly down to the obvious weaknesses in our team (i.e. keeper and central defenders) and it ranks as a poor tournament for us.

UEFA nations league? I couldn't give a shite if we were in division X. 

[latics22]

2 hours ago, wiseowl said:

Strange comment given that England's win rate in 2022 is 38% and we were relegated to UEFA Nations League B, less than 3 months ago, after the dismal loss against Italy and following the national team's worst run of form in over 8 years (including not scoring a goal from open play in 452 minutes).

 

Appreciate it's all about opinions but we played "nobody" in the world cup - until we played a rather lack lustre France, who were there for the taking if we're honest. However, despite all the hype about our forward players, once again, we could not score from open play.

 

Throw in that France's goals were partly down to the obvious weaknesses in our team (i.e. keeper and central defenders) and it ranks as a poor tournament for us.

Or you could say we qualified from the toughest group all ranked in the top 20. Pick the stats to suit your argument. 

[wiseowl]

1 hour ago, Magic Mikey said:

The thing it's got nothing to do with might have explained the ridiculous bollocks. 

Yawn.......................

[wiseowl]

1 minute ago, latics22 said:

Or you could say we qualified from the toughest group all ranked in the top 20. Pick the stats to suit your argument. 

Exactly what I didn't do i.e. I took the whole year's stats.

 

Doesn't matter - let's carry on backing a man who can't win anything and let's carry on pretending we have a world class team.

[Dave_Og]

1 hour ago, wiseowl said:

Exactly what I didn't do i.e. I took the whole year's stats.

 

Doesn't matter - let's carry on backing a man who can't win anything and let's carry on pretending we have a world class team.

So you think we're pretending we have a world class team but it's Southgate's fault it didn't win the World Cup?

[sjk2008]

3 minutes ago, Dave_Og said:

So you think we're pretending we have a world class team but it's Southgate's fault it didn't win the World Cup?

Game, set and the match.

[IanMarshall's Mullet]

11 hours ago, mcfluff1985 said:

I understood. I was being sarcastic. After 1 game people called him shite

Ahhhh ok. It's difficult to tell on here sometimes.

[yarddog73]

11 hours ago, mcfluff1985 said:

I understood. I was being sarcastic. After 1 game people called him shite

He was and has been for a dozen since but don't let that fact get in the way of the argument though, if he's had a better game let's hope he's turned a corner and can play consistently at a better level, some players have had let's say fair less chance to play themselves in to form and we've been carrying him for weeks hence why he was benched in the first place.  

[wiseowl]

13 hours ago, Dave_Og said:

So you think we're pretending we have a world class team but it's Southgate's fault it didn't win the World Cup?

Hi Dave - I left myself open to that one - well done! 

 

What I am saying is that we don't have a world class team - and never will with the likes of Stones, Maguire and Henderson in there. However, it certainly wasn't a world class performance from France that beat us and, with a bit of guile, we would have beaten them. That's where Southgate comes in - always scared to make wholesale changes when needed - subs wise. 

 

I maintain we have just allowed the best opportunity to win the world cup again, slip through our fingers when all it needed was a bit of good management. The general standard of football on show has been pretty poor tbh.

 

Think of it like this - Wimbledon won an FA Cup Final, in 1988, against the mighty Liverpool, who had a plethora of international stars in their ranks. So, it is possible to get through to the final of a knock-out competition - and win- without having the best team. That's where Southgate fails - he hasn't got that guile within him to get the results when the pressure is on.

[JoeP]

The ref calls the foul against Saka before their goal and Kane hits the target from the penalty and it's a different game. There's no fault of the manager there. I was dubious after the form going into the world Cup, but I think we were pretty unlucky. 

 

I think the gap between the top and bottom in international football is shrinking, which is why Morocco and Croatia did so well. There's few easy games anymore. Stick with Southgate because he knows the drill.

 

 

 

 

[TheBigDog]

I think that the players need to take responsibility sometimes too. If that second penalty had been a tad (ahem) lower it would have brought us level.

At that point we were in the ascendancy following a very good performance the second half.

The oft underestimated Giroud had outsmarted our two centre backs to give France a lead that was against the run of play.

It’s all conjecture I know but I believe, if Kane had scored, that England would have won the game.

 

We had good chances and they were not taken.

 

This World Cup was an opportunity missed and Southgate knows that.

[whittles left foot]

48 minutes ago, JoeP said:

 

I think the gap between the top and bottom in international football is shrinking, which is why Morocco and Croatia did so well. There's few easy games anymore. Stick with Southgate because he knows the drill.

 

 

If you think Croatia represent the bottom of world football think again.

Quote

Since 1994, the Vatreni have qualified for every major tournament with the exception of Euro 2000 and the 2010 World Cup. The modern-day team has reached the quarter-finals of the UEFA European Championship twice (1996, 2008) and is set to contest the semi-finals of the UEFA Nations League in 2023. At the FIFA World Cup, they have reached the top four on three occasions (1998, 2018, 2022), winning bronze in their 1998 debut and silver in 2018.

 

[bigfatjoe1]

22 minutes ago, whittles left foot said:

If you think Croatia represent the bottom of world football think again.

 

For a country of 4 million, they are incredible. They have a production line of real talent. I still remember Suker trying to chip Schmeichel in Euro 96. Brilliant players.

[nzlatic]

4 hours ago, wiseowl said:

Hi Dave - I left myself open to that one - well done! 

 

What I am saying is that we don't have a world class team - and never will with the likes of Stones, Maguire and Henderson in there. However, it certainly wasn't a world class performance from France that beat us and, with a bit of guile, we would have beaten them. That's where Southgate comes in - always scared to make wholesale changes when needed - subs wise. 

 

I maintain we have just allowed the best opportunity to win the world cup again, slip through our fingers when all it needed was a bit of good management. The general standard of football on show has been pretty poor tbh.

 

Think of it like this - Wimbledon won an FA Cup Final, in 1988, against the mighty Liverpool, who had a plethora of international stars in their ranks. So, it is possible to get through to the final of a knock-out competition - and win- without having the best team. That's where Southgate fails - he hasn't got that guile within him to get the results when the pressure is on.

I agree France weren't great. But why can't England and Southgate get credit for France's performance not being as good? Why can't it be down to how we played rather than them playing poorly?

 

Your Wimbledon analogy is exactly the sort of attitude that I believe Southgate is trying to change. We shouldn't be thinking of ourselves as the underdogs out to cause an upset, we should be the Liverpool in that example - the team that people expect to do well.  I think he's gone a long way toward changing those attitudes by us being disappointed by getting beat by the champions in the quarters - not because we want to be the Wimbledon, but because we were the better team and now deserve our place in the last 4 of major tournaments on merit, not one off fighting spirit.

 

England's style of play has changed over the last 30 years, from a fast, direct style to a controlled possession style finally keeping up with the modern game. In 2016 we couldn't pass the ball against Iceland. In 2018 and 2021 we played well right till the end, but were too cautious and ran out of ideas. This year we kept going and kept looking dangerous all the way, always looking to pass and move forward with positivity.  I think those continued improvements means he deserves a shot at the next one. And I believe that the change of style means we have more of a chance of winning going forward whether he's in charge or not.

[Londonboy]

49 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

I agree France weren't great. But why can't England and Southgate get credit for France's performance not being as good? Why can't it be down to how we played rather than them playing poorly?

 

Your Wimbledon analogy is exactly the sort of attitude that I believe Southgate is trying to change. We shouldn't be thinking of ourselves as the underdogs out to cause an upset, we should be the Liverpool in that example - the team that people expect to do well.  I think he's gone a long way toward changing those attitudes by us being disappointed by getting beat by the champions in the quarters - not because we want to be the Wimbledon, but because we were the better team and now deserve our place in the last 4 of major tournaments on merit, not one off fighting spirit.

 

England's style of play has changed over the last 30 years, from a fast, direct style to a controlled possession style finally keeping up with the modern game. In 2016 we couldn't pass the ball against Iceland. In 2018 and 2021 we played well right till the end, but were too cautious and ran out of ideas. This year we kept going and kept looking dangerous all the way, always looking to pass and move forward with positivity.  I think those continued improvements means he deserves a shot at the next one. And I believe that the change of style means we have more of a chance of winning going forward whether he's in charge or not.

It's all about opinions init!

 

Mine is Southgate is an excellent man manager and can bring a squad together as well as anyone, however he's an average coach and tactician on the international stage, and with him in charge England will not reach their potential with the tallent available.

It's a fact that we haven't managed to win against what is considered a top team in any finals outside of England for god knows how long, which shows either we are just not good enough, or the coach isn't.

[nzlatic]

52 minutes ago, Londonboy said:

It's all about opinions init!

 

Mine is Southgate is an excellent man manager and can bring a squad together as well as anyone, however he's an average coach and tactician on the international stage, and with him in charge England will not reach their potential with the tallent available.

It's a fact that we haven't managed to win against what is considered a top team in any finals outside of England for god knows how long, which shows either we are just not good enough, or the coach isn't.

I tend to agree tactically to a degree. I don’t think he’ll go on to succeed in club management for example. The question is how important are those things (he has a coaching team that can do those) when compared to the environment he creates allowing technically gifted players to play positively and get further in tournaments?

 

Statistically he’s done better in tournaments than anyone else apart from Ramsey. I think there are enough signs of improvement for him to be worth more time. But I could be wrong, we might need a change to take that step. Absolutely about opinions!